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Thread: May in-goal hold back?

      
  1. #41

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    Default Re: May in-goal hold back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    Have you a supporting law for that?
    I could have sworn I'd read it in a pre 2018 lawbook, but I've had a look on the online version and I can't find it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    ... In my book, "foul play" is always material. I am prepared to change my stance on that if you can support your view in law. ... I can only assume that both took OB's, reasonable, position that the was two players getting tangled "nothing to see here, move along".
    Foul Play is either "always material" or we decide it's immaterial and play on. It can't be both surely.

    Personally, I'm in the "If it's immaterial, we play on" camp, but

    1. it would depend on the offence - eg a headbutt would be treated differently to a sly shirt tug 20m back from play and
    2. I would feel happier if I could find reference to it in the online lawbook.
    Last edited by Taff; 12-02-19 at 22:02.

  2. #42

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    Default Re: May in-goal hold back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taff View Post
    But was it "material"?

    Imagine a 5m scrum. The attacking SH runs blindside with the ball and the attacking openside Flanker barges the opposing openside Flanker. Yes, technically there has been an infringement (playing the man with the ball / obstruction etc - take your pick) but did it really prevent a probable try? No, because there wasn't a chance in hell the openside Flanker could have done anything about it. I'm pretty sure the lawbook says that's OK.
    Red by NKW
    I thought you were just kidding, until

    Quote Originally Posted by Taff View Post
    I could have sworn I'd read it in a pre 2018 lawbook, but I've had a look on the online version and I can't find it.


    Foul Play is either "always material" or we decide it's immaterial and play on. It can't be both surely.

    Personally, I'm in the "If it's immaterial, we play on" camp, but

    1. it would depend on the offence - eg a headbutt would be treated differently to a sly shirt tug 20m back from play and
    2. I would feel happier if I could find reference to it in the online lawbook.
    I'm not sure if you are serious, or this is some 5th column tactic. Either way, it is fascinating

  3. #43
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    Default Re: May in-goal hold back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taff View Post
    I could have sworn I'd read it in a pre 2018 lawbook, but I've had a look on the online version and I can't find it.


    Foul Play is either "always material" or we decide it's immaterial and play on. It can't be both surely.

    Personally, I'm in the "If it's immaterial, we play on" camp, but

    1. it would depend on the offence - eg a headbutt would be treated differently to a sly shirt tug 20m back from play and
    2. I would feel happier if I could find reference to it in the online lawbook.
    Perhaps you'd be better off if you stop digging until you find your law reference? I can send you a pre 2018 book if you'd like!
    Last edited by Marc Wakeham; 13-02-19 at 13:02.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: May in-goal hold back?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Well, definitely he shouldn't..
    Agreed it was an error but I can understand why it happened and why it did not become a real issue. But he'd have been better of not doing it.

  5. #45

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    Default Re: May in-goal hold back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Not Kurt Weaver View Post
    Red by NKW
    .... I'm not sure if you are serious, or this is some 5th column tactic. Either way, it is fascinating
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    Perhaps you'd be better off if you stop digging until you find your law reference? I can send you a pre 2018 book if you'd like!
    Why would I want to undermine anyone?

    Genuine question. If there was a 5m scrum and the attacking SH got the ball and went say blindside to score but the attacking openside Flanker pulled back the opposing Flanker (who for the sake or argument we will assume didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of stopping the Try because it was at the other side of the scrum) what would either of you give?

    Would you award the Try or give a PK against the offending Flanker?
    Last edited by Taff; 13-02-19 at 13:02.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: May in-goal hold back?

    Looking at the video (just refreshed there). May hooks his arm around the French lads arm and pulls it back. These guys can get up at an astonishing speed and he was on at leasts one knee when his arm was dragged back. I concede that Nig wouldn't have seen it from his angle in real time.

    I believe this unfairly impeded the French lad. He may not have been able to get to the ball to touch it down (for a scrum - white). But for me there he was denied the opportunity.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: May in-goal hold back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taff View Post
    Why would I want to undermine anyone?

    Genuine question. If there was a 5m scrum and the attacking SH got the ball and went say blindside to score but the attacking openside Flanker pulled back the opposing Flanker (who for the sake or argument we will assume didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of stopping the Try because it was at the other side of the scrum) what would either of you give?

    Would you award the Try or give a PK against the offending Flanker?
    Did I mention "undermine"? You are digging a hole for yourself.


    To answer your question from a 5m scrum who is to say that the flanker could not have got back to support a tackler / defend a ruck of maul situation. So yes if I saw it PK.

    Now about that law reference?

  8. #48

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    Default Re: May in-goal hold back?

    so my question remains - its not whether May did it or not, but why NO+TMO didn't even discuss it.

    didds

  9. #49

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    Default Re: May in-goal hold back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    Did I mention "undermine"? You are digging a hole for yourself.
    You didn't, but NKW did. I had to look it up ..

    DEFINITION: A fifth columnist is a person who undermines a larger group from within, usually in favour of an enemy group or nation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    ... To answer your question from a 5m scrum who is to say that the flanker could not have got back to support a tackler / defend a ruck of maul situation. So yes if I saw it PK.
    So any Foul Play gets penalised regardless of how minor or how material. Forget getting back to support anyone - the assumption in the question was the defending Flanker had no chance of supporting anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    .. Now about that law reference?
    I can't find it even in a 2015 book. OB may know if it ever existed, but until last night I would have put £100 on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    So my question remains - its not whether May did it or not, but why NO+TMO didn't even discuss it.
    My best guess is either

    • Both NO and the TMO missed it or
    • Both NO and the TMO saw it but thought it obviously wasn't material and not even worth querying.
    Last edited by Taff; 13-02-19 at 15:02.

  10. #50

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    Default Re: May in-goal hold back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    Now about that law reference?
    Quote Originally Posted by Taff View Post
    I can't find it even in a 2015 book. OB may know if it ever existed, but until last night I would have put £100 on it.
    I believe the original claim was that foul play should always be penalised? If so, what about the Advantage law?
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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