View Poll Results: Is the ball OUT ?

Voters
20. You may not vote on this poll
  • A ONLY

    1 5.00%
  • B ONLY

    3 15.00%
  • Both A and B

    16 80.00%
  • Neither A nor B

    0 0%
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 55

Thread: Is the ball out?

      
  1. #21

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    9,594
    Thanks (Received)
    60
    Likes (Received)
    904

    Default Re: Is the ball out?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    for me
    - but for a tackled player : we generally tolerate it, by convention
    I'd suggest the convention is there to stop clod hopping second rows from accidentally booting the ball away, keeping it tidy - but it shouldn't be there to prevent the oppo from claiming the ball legally.

    But the game seems to have developed a nuance whereby its only becomes legally claimable once the conventionally permitted hand is actually removed. Ye gods!

    didds

  2. #22

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    17,445
    Thanks (Received)
    136
    Likes (Received)
    1689

    Default Re: Is the ball out?

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    its gets more bizarre dunnit? Cos potentially it seems that if the tackled player keeps his hand on the ball, depsite it otherwise being clear - the oppo cannot advance towards it. And we can all just look at it until half/full time? Well actually not half/full time cos its not dead!

    winner!

    didds
    the referee can always say : use it

    oh, hang on, in a TWOL there is no 'use it'

  3. #23

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    9,594
    Thanks (Received)
    60
    Likes (Received)
    904

    Default Re: Is the ball out?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    the referee can always say : use it

    oh, hang on, in a TWOL there is no 'use it'
    exactly



    didds

    - - - Updated - - -

    Maybe this will become known as the "Italian Standoff"

  4. #24

    Referees in England
    Wedgie's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Kent
    Grade
    10
    Join Date
    11 Oct 11
    Posts
    191
    Thanks (Received)
    3
    Likes (Received)
    22

    Default Re: Is the ball out?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    the referee can always say : use it

    oh, hang on, in a TWOL there is no 'use it'
    Eventually some white player will touch the red players on their feet and over the ball, hence forming a ruck and allowing us to say "Use it". Whilst I am a fan of people using laws to their teams' advantage (c.f. Conor O'Shea!) we do our utmost to keep a game going so, if the Italian standoff occurs, then I would being saying "use it", regardless.

  5. #25

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    17,445
    Thanks (Received)
    136
    Likes (Received)
    1689

    Default Re: Is the ball out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wedgie View Post
    Eventually some white player will touch the red players on their feet and over the ball, hence forming a ruck and allowing us to say "Use it". Whilst I am a fan of people using laws to their teams' advantage (c.f. Conor O'Shea!) we do our utmost to keep a game going so, if the Italian standoff occurs, then I would being saying "use it", regardless.
    this sort of thing doesn't happen in the community game, does it ? In my games forwards ALWAYS pile in and we ALWAYS get a ruck..

    but in the pro game, my inclination is that ref shouldn't call 'use it' until white deign to contest for the ball and therefore a ruck is created

  6. #26

    Referees in England
    Wedgie's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Kent
    Grade
    10
    Join Date
    11 Oct 11
    Posts
    191
    Thanks (Received)
    3
    Likes (Received)
    22

    Default Re: Is the ball out?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    for me
    - clearly it's illegal to be on the ground, with your hand on the ball (13.3, 18.11, 18.15, 14.7 )
    - but for a tackled player : we generally tolerate it, by convention
    - but if the ball is otherwise out, an illegal hand on it can't make it in
    Would it be different if it were a foot rather than a hand? Or if the hand were hovering above the ball? One view could be that the red player is not holding the ball in the sense of he is not 'not releasing' it to any white player that is in a legal position to play the ball. Rather, he is extending the tackle area to maintain the offside line ?

  7. #27

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    17,445
    Thanks (Received)
    136
    Likes (Received)
    1689

    Default Re: Is the ball out?

    He is on the ground so shouldn't be doing anything at all (other then releasing the ball, moving away etc.)

    You can argue that his responsibility is slightly different in a ruck or a twol .. but 13.3 applies to both

    But of course in practice we all allow him to have a hand on it .. but not , curiously his foot. We usually penalise that !

  8. #28

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    9,594
    Thanks (Received)
    60
    Likes (Received)
    904

    Default Re: Is the ball out?

    what if thgere is no red player left on their feet to engage with and theyve both for nexample in the top pictures fallen to ground? Nobody to engage with = no ruck. Peyper has we know decided white cannot play the ball and presumably just running over it won;t acheive anything - except maybe a PK for offside. the waiting half back cant be cleared - he isn;t over the ball.

    Italian standoff continues


    ???

    didds

  9. #29

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    9,594
    Thanks (Received)
    60
    Likes (Received)
    904

    Default Re: Is the ball out?

    Further to that - if white engage the red player with the red headguard - he isn;t over the ball anyway so its still not a ruck. In reality the non headguard red player ends up on the floor very shortly after that still. And he is way p[ast the ball by this stage now anyway.

    didds

  10. #30

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    17,445
    Thanks (Received)
    136
    Likes (Received)
    1689

    Default Re: Is the ball out?

    It would he helpful to know why, at the end of the trials, WR rejected the mono-ruck and replaced it with the TWOL .. what difference were they intending to achieve ?

    It's hard to discern , especially as the next Law change was to make the two more similar (2019 changing the offside lines at a ruck to match the TWOL)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •