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Thread: More than one offence by the same team

      
  1. #21

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    1 in starting a new thread I was trying to generalise from one specific incident, let's see if we can generate a rule that works generally

    Bringing various reaponses together

    Scenario 1
    You signal adv for one offence
    Then a completely separate offence occurs
    a. we all agree 7.2.d applies ? YES

    Scenario 2
    One offence occurs, before you can stick your arm out , another one occurs
    a put your arm out, same as 1 YES - WITH A CLARIFICATION CALL OF 2ND PENALTY ADVANTAGE FOR XXX AGAINST #XX

    Scenario 3
    An offence occurs, but before you can get your whistle to your mouth , another one occurs
    A blow whistle and penalise first one - NO, SEE ABOVE - UNLESS THERE IS CLEARLY NO ADVANTAGE TO BE GAINED (AS PER LAW GUIDANCE)

    Scenario 4
    Two or more simultaneous offences occur
    You play advantage
    a same as 1m. 7.2.d applies - YES - FOR A SIMULTANEOUS OFFENCE YOU TAKE THE MOST MATERIAL

    Scenario 5
    Two or more simultaneous offences occur , you blow whistle
    A . This is the one to discuss
    WHY? SEE MY ANSWER ABOVE.

    If you have seen a simultaneous offence and blown the whistle to stop play you are of the opinion that either there is no advantage to be had and so there is no point playing it OR the offence for which you are 'stopping' the game is foul play that needs to be dealt with as a sanction is warranted.

    For clarification about simultaneous/multiple offences I offer the following as EXAMPLES:
    1. Breakdown - at least 2 players offside. You can identify both players in your call but the mark would be at the point of the player with the greatest material impact on play
    2. Lineout - Hindmost defensive player steps in 15m and the defending jumper takes out the player in the air. The mark is in the same place (as the line-out has not ended) but the latter is the more serious offence as it may also have a more serious sanction

    There are simultaneous offences at most phases of play. Through our game management we decide which are more material and need penalising and which can be 'managed'. Do you always penalise the tackler for being on the wrong side? What if he was trapped in by the BC supporting players, and the ball is clearly available for the #9 to play.

    Use the multiple penalty choice as a tool. You may be surprised as to how some captains will make the choice. Kick at goal v line out (as an example), or perhaps scrum option of the mark furthest from the posts. The higher up the levels the more the Captains will be aware of their options, use them and keep them on your side.
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  2. #22

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    What's the Law Reference for the statement

    FOR A SIMULTANEOUS OFFENCE YOU TAKE THE MOST MATERIAL

    Because 7.2.d says offer a choice (and it covers both second OR subsequent offences )

  3. #23

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    What's the Law Reference for the statement

    FOR A SIMULTANEOUS OFFENCE YOU TAKE THE MOST MATERIAL

    Because 7.2.d says offer a choice (and it covers both second OR subsequent offences )
    ONLY if you are playing advantage for one offence and another occurs. If they both happen together the referee makes the choice.

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  4. #24

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    ONLY if you are playing advantage for one offence and another occurs. If they both happen together the referee makes the choice.
    yes, you are asserting that, but what's the law reference for that bit in bold?

    and what would be your criteria?
    - the one that is most material?
    - the one that is most advantageous for the oppo?
    - something else?
    And law reference again?


    Because, for me, 7.2.d covers it perfectly

    scenario --
    -one team commits an infringement, and at the same time, a second infringement.
    - no advantage can be played (or you'd be playing it).

    Here's the exact thing in the Laws...

    7.2.d The offending team commits a second or subsequent infringement from which no advantage can be gained. The referee stops play and allows the captain of the non-offending team to choose the most advantageous sanction.

    This is the Laws forum, I deliberately moved here - so I am looking for a Law-based answer.
    Last edited by crossref; 28-02-19 at 20:02.

  5. #25

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    what's the law reference for that bit in bold?
    Years of convention. Just ask your Society.
    Or.....the referee is the sole judge of...etc.

    The option to captains is new and specifically applied to multiple advantages as per the presentation from WR and the RFU when it came about. Prior to that it was accepted policy for the referee to decide which offence was most advantageous to the none offending team.

    But I am sure you know all this

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  6. #26

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    Phil, years of convention are irrelevant, because the Law specifically changed last May.
    The change was highlighted and everything.

    I don't think you have had presentations on this new Law (IE in the last six months? )

    I think you are referring to the brief when the original trial started
    But the Law they trialled wasn't quite the same as what they put in the Law Book last May .. the Law in May was reworded to make it clear it covers simultaneous as well as consecutive offences

    Is this another case of refusing to implement a Law change uniil it's backed up with an email ?

  7. #27

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    CR, if a Red #14 punched an opponent on one touchline and simultaneously Red #11 punched an opponent on the other touchline, then yes, I would give option.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  8. #28

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    So, summary --

    There is a new (May 2018) Law - 7.2.d

    7.2.d The offending team commits a second or subsequent infringement from which no advantage can be gained. The referee stops play and allows the captain of the non-offending team to choose the most advantageous sanction.


    and I asked : are there any circumstances when you would NOT apply that Law

    Great answers -- thanks all.

    the themes were

    1 - when only one of the offences was material.
    Agreed. But then there is only really one offence, so that's not really the point of my question

    2 - when one of the offences wasn't really an offence (like the winger who may be offside, but wasn't interefering with play)
    Agreed. But But then there is only really one offence, so that's not really the point of my question

    3 - when the two offences are offside under the 10m Law - because 10.4c actually tells you which player to penalise
    Agreed, that's definitely an exception

    4 - when the two offences are both any kind of offside offence, because then 7.2.d doesn't apply
    But there is nothing in the Law to suggest why this should the case. Rejected

    5 - when the two offences are simultaneous
    But the Law specifically covers this : it mentions a second OR subsequent offence. So it specifically covers simultaneous or subsequent offences. Rejected

    6 - Because across all the years we've been reffing using we've never followed 7.2.d before
    But that's because 7.2.d is NEW Law -- Rejected

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