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Thread: More than one offence by the same team

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    7.2.d covers both simultaneous and subsequent

    It says, specifically a "second OR subsequent" offence
    Second and subsequent are not the same as simultaneous. Both second and subsequent come after the first offence and the first offence in the example we were originally discussing was simultaneous offending. (All at the same time.) So 7.2d does not apply unless there is a second or subsequent offence. See my other post above.

  2. #12
    Rugby Club Member Flish's Avatar

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    In the offside scenario (that I've decided is material and will penalise) with multiple offenders I'm probably going to consider that a 'single offence' from the perspective of where the kick is taken and not offer the option, at least I have done that, if the winger half a pitch away is also offside I don't think that's likely to be material enough to be considered an option anyway.

    If we have a phase of play with multiple distinct offences that warrant a penalty then yes, I give the option of where the captain would like the mark. The challenge I've had here (may have been discussed recently I can't remember) is do you allow them to go quick? (Assuming it's not the captain that's going quick). I certainly have pulled it back for this as I need the captains decision (and because often I need to talk to the opposite captain too) - not that I would always.

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    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    They can't go quick (or at all) until you make the mark. If you need to ask the captain where he'd like the mark, you can't make it.

    Personally, if it's fairly obvious and the defence would be able to set if I check, I'll make the mark and then look for a nod from the captain, or call as I'm heading over. It can take a bit of multitasking, though

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    1 in starting a new thread I was trying to generalise from one specific incident, let's see if we can generate a rule that works generally

    Bringing various reaponses together

    Scenario 1
    You signal adv for one offence
    Then a completely separate offence occurs
    a. we all agree 7.2.d applies ?

    Scenario 2
    One offence occurs, before you can stick your arm out , another one occurs
    a put your arm out, same as 1

    Scenario 3
    An offence occurs, but before you can get your whistle to your mouth , another one occurs
    A blow whistle and penalise first one

    Scenario 4
    Two or more simultaneous offences occur
    You play advantage
    a same as 1m. 7.2.d applies

    Scenario 5
    Two or more simultaneous offences occur , you blow whistle
    A . This is the one to discuss

  5. #15

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    I thought we were talking about one offence committed by several players simultaneously and not multiple offences by multiple players simultaneously.

  6. #16

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    CR - It seems to me that you are ignoring the possibility of simultaneous offending.
    Six players offside under 10M law. You would give an option?
    Four players never on side from last breakdown. Who do you penalise?
    As Phil E says, only if you play advantage can you give an option. Also only if they offend with a different penalty I would say and not the same one as the one you are playing advantage from.
    Thought I'd better clarify that it could be because of another different offence rather than just a penalty. I.E. knock-on from a genuine attempt to intercept.

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    If you are able to listen in to a higher level (Panel and above) referee briefing to his/her ARs you will hear them tell them to only call in a mid-field offside if and when it is material and then mark the material spot. The AR will perhaps have seen several players offside but will only make the call when the centre makes the tackle or put pressure on the ball carrier to pass after having been in an offside position. The better referees do not want to stop the game or call an advantage unless it is material.

    At lower levels I would be looking for a referee to have seen a potential offence and only apply materiality to a specific situation. If the offside was not material then play on. However, I would be looking for a good referee to mention at downtime that he had seen the offside and warn players to be more careful.
    Last edited by Balones; 28-02-19 at 14:02.

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    I thought we were talking about one offence committed by several players simultaneously and not multiple offences by multiple players simultaneously.
    This thread was mean to be about the general rules when more than one offence has been committrd..

    There does seem to be a view that it's different for offside then for other offences

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    If you are able to listen in to a higher level (Panel and above) referee briefing to his/her ARs you will hear them tell them to only call in a mid-field offside if and when it is material and then mark the material spot. The AR will perhaps have seen several players offside but will only make the call when the centre makes the tackle or put pressure on the ball carrier to pass after having been in an offside position. The better referees do not want to stop the game or call an advantage unless it is material.

    At lower levels I would be looking for a referee to have seen a potential offence and only apply materiality to a specific situation. If the offside was not material then play on. However, I would be looking for a good referee to mention at downtime that he had seen the offside and warn players to be more careful.
    Yes makes perfect sense

    But what I wanted to focus on in this thread is where there are two players who are BOTH material.

    Where is the PK

    (Perhaps one is in the 9/10 channel, the other is in the 9/11 channel .. but let's not be distracted by the example , it's the general rule I am after .. what if there are two material offences)

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    Default Re: More than one offence by the same team

    CR and everyone have very compelling arguments. I've read through all the comments. My interpretation of second and subsequent offences is the sane as CR. If you take "second and subsequent" as a combination for criteria for applying Pen advantage, then you would need to stop at the 3rd pen, and bring in back to the 2nd pen and give the options for the 1st or 2nd offences.
    I read this as 2 separate criterion ei - there has been a 2nd penalty (would be a the second offence) and a subsequent offence (so conceivably 3rd,4th,5th, 6th etc offences), so you could offer option with them.

    Now here's what I think the crux is. If we accept the "Second" and "Subsequent" are different criterion, then "Second" could mean simultaneous and anymore pens are the subsequent to the 2nd (simultaneous) offence (I'm hoping this makes sense lol).

    That being said, if the pillar has sneaked slightly offside at the same time as the 10 but the 10 makes the tackle I'd prob just let the pillar go as immaterial, depending on if I felt he impacted the decision making of the 9. Then maybe just have a word with the captain about watching the offside as it may be material next time.

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