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Thread: Knock-on into in-goal

      
  1. #1

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    Default Knock-on into in-goal

    I know this has been asked before, but my searches haven’t found a consensus since the law book rewrite.

    Knock-on into (or in) the in-goal was explicitly covered in the 2017 law book as being a defending scrum 5m out, rather than being a 22m drop-out - the theory being, and adviser once explained to me, “not getting scored in is advantage enough”!

    I had this knock-on situation arise three times on Saturday, and I gave the scrum every time (at least I was consistent!), but the non-offending side asked about the 22. I said no with enough conviction and confidence that it wasn’t argued, but when I went to check the law book afterwards, I found the explicit reference on this situation has been removed.

    I still believe the decision is correct, but requires a somewhat tortuous justification in law compared to the 2017 clarity, and find myself wondering what others do. And I certinaly don’t think it was WR’s intent to changed the outcomes of this situation.

    So, do you:
    - still award scrum 5m to defenders, and if so, what’s your justification?
    - give the 22 drop-out for a ball played into in-goal by attack, even though it was knocked on?
    If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you... you must be a rugby referee!

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the universe..." - Albert Einstein

  2. #2
    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

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    Default Re: Knock-on into in-goal

    I still award the 5m defensive scrum. My justification is interpreting 7.3.f that way (and not for defenders' knock-ons where the ball is made dead by scoring a try), because that's how it's always been interpreted in practice.

  3. #3

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    Default Re: Knock-on into in-goal

    Law 7.3 (f)
    Advantage must not be applied and the referee must blow the whistle immediately when:
    The ball is made dead.

    As the ball has been made dead advantage must not be applied.
    Let me make a confession: I do not know whether the decision which gave the try from which the winning goal was kicked was correct in fact, When in doubt I think it is justified in deciding against the side which makes the most noise. They are probably in the wrong.
    Dr Hely Hutchinson Almond 1871

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    Default Re: Knock-on into in-goal

    In 2017 the Law about knock ons that cross the goal line was taken away.

    So knock ons that cross the goal line are now exactly the same as a knock on in any other part of the pitch, and the Law of advantage applies .

    When playing advantage , if the ball goes dead then you can no longer play advantage (obvs) so you blow your whistle
    If advantage has been gained .. advantage over , restart as appropriate
    If no advantage was gained, back to the knock on

  5. #5

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    Default Re: Knock-on into in-goal

    so the debate is over whether the choice between a ~5m scrum or a 22 d/o is "advantage" .

    ???

    didds

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    Default Re: Knock-on into in-goal

    I had changed my view after the last big debate on this. I am now comfortable to argue that making the ball dead is a play under pressure and therefore not to be treated/considered an advantage in itself.

    Just a thought process that allows me to be consistent in my application of the 5m scrum.
    Last edited by ChuckieB; 11-03-19 at 12:03.

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    Default Re: Knock-on into in-goal

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    so the debate is over whether the choice between a ~5m scrum or a 22 d/o is "advantage" .

    ???

    didds
    Yes.
    Law 19 Scrum

    Where the game is restarted with a scrum and which team throws in is determined as follows:

    Infringement / stoppage
    A knock-on or throw forward, apart from at a lineout.

    Location of scrum
    In the scrum zone at the point closest to the place of infringement.

    Who throws in
    The non-offending team.
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

  8. #8

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    Default Re: Knock-on into in-goal

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckieB View Post
    I had changed my view after the last big debate on this. I am now comfortable to argue that making the ball dead is a play under pressure and therefore not to be treated/considered an advantage in itself.

    Just a thought process that allows me to be consistent in my application of the 5m scrum.
    What if it clearly isn't under pressure?

  9. #9

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    Default Re: Knock-on into in-goal

    Oh gawd. Just when I thought Id got this stuff sorted in my head, here we go again... (that's not a dig at anybody in this site!).

    didds

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    Default Re: Knock-on into in-goal

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    What if it clearly isn't under pressure?
    Possession within your own in goal area after an attacking knock on not meeting the definition of pressure for you then?

    Its hardly the freedom to play the ball as you wish to keep the game continuing and your attacking options open which is what the advantage law is really all about.

    it's a defensive play rather than an attacking play.
    Last edited by ChuckieB; 11-03-19 at 18:03.

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