NO on forward pasess

[Phil E]

The takeaway is
The forward pass Law is - genuinely - complicated

You making it complicated doesn't mean it is.

If it goes forward, it is.
If it doesn't, its backwards.
The referees decision on this is final.

END

[crossref]

And neither does Phil E's attempt

[OB..]

Reluctantly I feel the need for one more go at this.

I'm still not seeing it?

run towards own DBL at 10 mph
pass towards own DBL at 5mph
ball is moving at -10-5=-15 mph

Thus ball moving towards own DBL.


??

Correct.

The scenario is
Player (-10) + throw (+ 4) = ball (-6)

This breaks OB rule in #9 (because it +4 ) but it's not a forward pass .. because the result is still negative (-6)

Does that make sense

No. If he passes to a player who is between him and his own DBL, then the backward speed is increased. It is therefore not a forward pass.

If he throws the ball over his shoulder (is that what your +4 implies?) he will decrease the backward speed which equates to an increase in forward speed.

Mathematically -6 is greater than -10. We are judging the pass relative to the passer, not in terms of absolute speed over the ground.

[thepercy]

Exactly so
Per OB logic that is a forward pass
Even though the ball is travelling towards the passers own. DBL

Well I reject that, legalistic, view.
That's not a forward pass

The direction the ball travels is not relevant to the thrown forward law. As per the definitions in the LotG, the direction the arms move is the determining factor.

[thepercy]

The takeaway is
The forward pass Law is - genuinely - complicated

All attempts to state it simply in one or two sentences, fail to cover every scenario. (including both NO's attempt, and OB's attempt )

It is a forward pass if: the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.

[Dickie E]

The basic idea is very simple: the ball initially has the same forward speed as the ball carrier. In passing it he must not increase the forward speed of the ball.

true enough. The tricky bit is for the ref to be able to determine that with accuracy.

[crossref]

It is a forward pass if: the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.

Which of course is completely different from the one sentence definitions offered by NO, OB and PE . Just going to show how difficult it is to sum up this Law in one or two sentences.

I think that any pass that travels backward over the ground .. ie toward the throwers own DBL cannot be a forward pass, irrespective of the direction the arms move , and irrespective of whether the thrower added or subtracted to the forward velocity of the ball.

[chbg]

It is a forward pass if: the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.

It is a forward pass if: the arms of the player passing the ball move towards the opposition's dead-ball line.

Except: in a strong adverse wind, when the ball is blown backwards after leaving the hands?

[OB..]

Which of course is completely different from the one sentence definitions offered by NO, OB and PE . Just going to show how difficult it is to sum up this Law in one or two sentences.

I maintain that my definition is equivalent. The physics of the test is clear, which does not mean it is easy to judge. As the 1948 RFU decision said, that must be left to the referee.

I think that any pass that travels backward over the ground .. ie toward the throwers own DBL cannot be a forward pass, irrespective of the direction the arms move , and irrespective of whether the thrower added or subtracted to the forward velocity of the ball.

But that is insufficient. As the well-known Australian/WR video demonstrates, the ball can travel forward over the ground and not be a throw forward.

[OB..]

It is a forward pass if: the arms of the player passing the ball move towards the opposition's dead-ball line.

Except: in a strong adverse wind, when the ball is blown backwards after leaving the hands?

The effect of the wind after the ball leaves the hands cannot determine if a pass was forward or not.
It can be difficult to judge, but that does not alter the physics.