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Thread: Wales vs England - Liam Williams going to ground to avoid tackle

      
  1. #21
    Rugby Club Member Treadmore's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wales vs England - Liam Williams going to ground to avoid tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Getting up is interesting

    Are you allowed to dive on the floor deliberately (eg to evade a would be tackle ) and then get up again and carry on ?
    Law 13 lists one exception - go to ground to gather the ball; not what LW did.

    Although no sanction is listed for what LW did (I think!) it does appear contrary to that law.

    And, for me, he compounded it by appealing to the ref to penalise Farrell, who did nothing wrong!

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    Default Re: Wales vs England - Liam Williams going to ground to avoid tackle

    For me the call went the wrong way. I’d argue LW went to ground to gather than ball (even though the ball wasn’t on the ground). But OF wasn’t the tackled and Was perfectly entitled to play the ball which LW held on to.

  3. #23
    Moderator Attention - New Usergroup Required frencie851's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wales vs England - Liam Williams going to ground to avoid tackle

    For me this is an example of a 'non-decision'. The referee then got a get of jail free card with the England player coming in at the side.

    The no decision was around red not releasing the ball, I feel.

  4. #24

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    Default Re: Wales vs England - Liam Williams going to ground to avoid tackle

    wow - I must have the wrong footage or see things through a different slant? But I'm struggling to see how some have interpreted anything but a PK to Wales??

    The Law 13 says:
    1. Players, who go to ground to gather the ball or who go to ground with the ball, must immediately:


    a. Get up with the ball; or
    b. Play (but not kick) the ball; or
    c. Release the ball.

    Sanction: Penalty.


    Williams went to ground with the ball - intentionally or not is irrelevant. He is fine to do so.
    He now has to do one of 3 things ...BUT before he can Farrell materially FIRST flops on him while he's on the ground (before getting to his feet again) - effectively preventing Willams from doing anything "immediately" and breaching

    4. Players on their feet and without the ball must not fall on or over players on the ground who have the ball or who are near it. Sanction: Penalty.


    IMO this was more than a mis-timed attempted tackle - Farrell's flop was deliberate and material and he should have been pinged.

    (funnily Jaco had no idea what was happening - he was a deer in the headlights by the time he arrived! . Arguably Farrell and the other Wales arriving support player form a ruck before Farrell gets hands on the ball - so IMO Farrell can't use hands!. jaco missed all of that and needed his AR to tell him incorrect entry into the ruck!)
    Last edited by menace; 14-03-19 at 08:03.
    Tell em it's Law 23 and smile

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Wales vs England - Liam Williams going to ground to avoid tackle

    (Full disclosure: big Wales fan, also big Jaco Peyper fan - though I didn't think he had a great game on Sat.)

    I have to say that at the time, I thought Liam Williams was extremely lucky not to get penalised.

    But having watched the replay in slow motion several times I think I can understand it now. (And incidentally the OP is not correct, LW does not look over his shoulder after gathering the ball, to check where OF was before going to ground.)

    The level of materiality set by the ref during the game is crucial. If you look at the previous breakdown where England were tackled, the red jackaler can't immediately pick up the ball even though he's on his feet, because white is holding on for a split second. But it's not long enough for JP to ping him, and then white arrive and secure the ball.

    In the LW case a few seconds later, LW goes to ground and OF still on his feet tries to play the ball. Almost immediately red capt AWJ joins the contest, and a split second later JM comes in at the side.

    Not enough time had elapsed to ping LW for holding on, so the first offence was side entry.

    It was a pity for England because otherwise they would almost certainly have got a penalty in a juicy position.

    So... actually I think this was extremely good refereeing by JP who only got one look in real time, not ten replays at half speed like me.

    Maybe he had a better day at the office than I first suspected...

  6. #26

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    Default Re: Wales vs England - Liam Williams going to ground to avoid tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by belhysys View Post
    How many time did you hear, he didnt let him get up.... from players /coach or sideline....
    This is surely one of the most persistent myths we encounter. I long ago modified my preventative call to "don't fall on him/her" to encourage the arriving player to stay on his/her feet without being discouraged from competing for the ball from the player who went to ground.
    If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you... you must be a rugby referee!

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the universe..." - Albert Einstein

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    Default Re: Wales vs England - Liam Williams going to ground to avoid tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by frencie851 View Post
    For me this is an example of a 'non-decision'. The referee then got a get of jail free card with the England player coming in at the side.

    The no decision was around red not releasing the ball, I feel.
    I'd love to get to the stage in refereeing where I'm performance reviewed so non decisions come more into focus, at the same time I'm dreading it as even more things for a coach to 'develop' me on!

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    Default Re: Wales vs England - Liam Williams going to ground to avoid tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra1922 View Post
    I'd love to get to the stage in refereeing where I'm performance reviewed so non decisions come more into focus, at the same time I'm dreading it as even more things for a coach to 'develop' me on!
    Are 'non decisions ' not equal to 'decisions ' in all assessments / coaching reports?

  9. #29

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    Default Re: Wales vs England - Liam Williams going to ground to avoid tackle

    Quote Originally Posted by Decorily View Post
    Are 'non decisions ' not equal to 'decisions ' in all assessments / coaching reports?
    To an extent, but not as much focus as in PM (as I understand it, having never got to such PM heights I'll have to defer to others!)

  10. #30

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    Default Re: Wales vs England - Liam Williams going to ground to avoid tackle

    First offence - as per Menace post#24

    (Thanks to Didds for the video link - Did folks notice just how long Peyper spent looking at the AR for confirmation on this rather than watching the breakdown unfold....!)

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