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Thread: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

      
  1. #201
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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    and here's the 2016/17 CRISP report:
    https://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Docu...te_Neutral.pdf

    ...and a little excerpt for those who don't get a kick out of reading such things...
    ...The average incidence of concussion over seasons 2014-15 to 2016-17 (average of 2.5 injuries/1,000player match hours) has been higher compared with the average over seasons 2009-10 to 2012-13(1.3 injuries/1,000 player match hours). This may be associated with changes in the characteristicsof the game which are related with concussion such as a greater number of contact events, or greaterlevels of intensity in these events. However, there is currently no evidence to demonstrate that thesefactors are increasing in the community game. This higher concussion incidence may also be due tothe raised awareness and diagnosis of this type of injury through the RFU ‘Headcase’ initiative whichhas been promoted extensively through the community game since January 2013...
    Screenshot 2019-04-09 17.25.07.jpg
    Last edited by mcroker; 09-04-19 at 17:04.

  2. #202

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    ...

    I'd find that unlikely to occur higher up the ladder. In which case it wont affect the RWC etc etc presumably. I cant see RWC "OKing" a blanket rule in a RWC that all tackles are below waist level and no double tackles without wholesale global usage of those requirements for some considerable time leading into it, and neither can I see WR changing the laws globally to embrace it in the first place. (Yet?).

    didds
    I have had another look at the headline news. Here, for example?
    Basically, for underage rugby changes the French Union doesn’t need International approval. And for changes to the Amateur adult game they have WR approval to start the trial. Be interesting to see how these “local” changes will affect the Elite game world wide post RWC 2019.
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
    John Henry Newman

  3. #203
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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Sorry for reviving this thread... but I found the England RFU guidance for disciplinary panels on recklessness interesting:

    https://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Docu...x5_English.pdf

    RFU Practice Note – Recklessness (RFU Regulation 19.11.8(b))

    When deciding the relevant sanction in relation to a particular offence(s), DisciplinaryPanels are required to assess the seriousness of the Player’s conduct. One of the keyassessments is to decide whether the relevant offending was deliberate or reckless, notingthat if the offending was purely accidental then no sanction applies. The term ‘reckless’ isdescribed in the following terms:

    ‘The player knew (or should have known) that there was a risk of committing an act of FoulPlay.’

    The RFU’s disciplinary regime reflects World Rugby Regulation 17. It exists to penalisePlayers whose Foul Play is other than purely accidental and one of its most importantprinciples is to prevent the risk of injury to other Players in a dynamic and physical sport.Players have an obligation to ensure that they do not cause injury to opponents,so there is a presumption that any conduct which is prescribed by World RugbyLaw 9 merits a sanction.

    The offences listed in World Rugby Law 9 do not require mens rea (the mental element of acrime or offending behaviour) – they create offences of strict liability. That is, by way ofillustration, it is illegal to stamp on an opponent – rather than deliberately stamp, orrecklessly stamp unless of course the contact is entirely accidental in which case no act ofFoul Play has been committed. An offence is committed if the prohibited act occurs. Themental state of the offending player at the time the offence was committed is only relevant tothe level of subsequent sanction. It is therefore wrong in principle to import definitions ofrecklessness from any criminal jurisdiction or other regulatory jurisdiction in consideringwhether or not the alleged Foul Play was committed.

    The definition of recklessness is derived from World Rugby Regulation 17. It has worldwideapplication and is rugby specific. It serves to penalise Players whose conduct is other thanpurely accidental and is designed to prevent the risk of injury to other Players. Nevertheless,panel members may find the following RFU expanded guidance helpful in interpreting themeaning of the World Rugby definition of reckless.

    ‘A Player is acting recklessly if, before doing something he either fails to give any thought tothe possibility that there is a risk that he might commit an act of Foul Play, or havingrecognised that there was such a risk, he nevertheless went on to do it.

    Thus, again by way of illustration, where a Player intends to tackle an opponent by contactwith his chest, but the opponent ducks just before contact is made so the contact is with theneck, an offence contrary to Law 9.13 will have been committed. In assessing the relevantentry point for sanction it would be appropriate to decide that this offending was reckless because there was a risk that the opponent would duck into the tackle, or that the tacklermay misjudge the point of contact. It could not be said in these circumstances that thecontact with the head was purely accidental.

  4. #204

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Interesting

    But here the last bit (unless.. ) rather contradicts the first statement (no mens rea)

    . The offences listed in World Rugby Law 9 do not require mens rea (the mental element of acrime or offending behaviour) – they create offences of strict liability. That is, by way ofillustration, it is illegal to stamp on an opponent – rather than deliberately stamp, orrecklessly stamp unless of course the contact is entirely accidental in which case no act ofFoul Play has been committed
    Last edited by crossref; 16-04-19 at 15:04.

  5. #205
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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Interesting

    But here the last bit (unless.. ) rather contradicts the first statement (no mens rea)
    Yes I concluded it didn't advance the position of either 'side' of the debate, but found it interesting all the same.

  6. #206

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    actually it does advance the discussion.

    It can only be termed "reckless" if in fact foul play has been committed (ie a law 9 broken).

    If I recall the madness of this thread correct, a great majority of people commenting agreed (possibly begrudgingly) that there really wasn't a law 9 broken. Therefore you can't pin "reckless" under 9.11 on this tackle.

    So that now leaves the nay-sayers with 'dangerous' in 9.11 to pin it on...which I'm sure will bring out the nashers to try and prove why they can sanction under 9.11.

    (damn it - I resolved not to comment further on this thread! Failed again!)
    Last edited by menace; 17-04-19 at 07:04.
    Tell em it's Law 23 and smile

  7. #207
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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by menace View Post
    It can only be termed "reckless" if in fact foul play has been committed (ie a law 9 broken).
    This can't be the case: "Players cannot do anything reckless or dangerous to others". That's fairly universal, and not restricted to a subset of predefined actions, the recklessness/dangerousness is what breaks law 9.

  8. #208

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_NL View Post
    This can't be the case: "Players cannot do anything reckless or dangerous to others". That's fairly universal, and not restricted to a subset of predefined actions, the recklessness/dangerousness is what breaks law 9.
    And I beg to differ


    "
    The term ‘reckless’ isdescribed in the following terms:

    ‘The player knew (or should have known) that there was a risk of committing an act of FoulPlay.’"

    Was = past tense (ie it happened)
    Committing foul play = foul play was committed.

    But ho hum.
    Tell em it's Law 23 and smile

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by mcroker View Post
    ...I concluded it didn't advance the position of either 'side' of the debate, but found it interesting all the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by menace View Post
    actually it does advance the discussion...
    Well, what I really meant was that both sides would read it, decide it justified their origionnal stance, and we could go round the loop once more

    Quote Originally Posted by menace View Post
    (damn it - I resolved not to comment further on this thread! Failed again!)
    Me too! Damn!

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