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Thread: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Is anyone really maintaining that they can penalise a hand off with excessive force, because there is a Law on it, but we have no way of penalising that?

    Anyway a generalized "excessive force" Law is surely on its way
    Last edited by crossref; 26-03-19 at 11:03.

  2. #12
    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    IF that same player performs a text book kknee high, full wrap, squueze the banana side tackle and the tackjled player just happens to break a leg - is that tackler now looking at sanction for something that 99.9999999999999% of the time is just " a tackle" ?
    No. But the tackle in the clip will not be just a tackle 99.9999% of the time.

    Intentional knock-on is a judgement call, which you back up by positioning and game situation. So is cynical play. Late tackle is a judgement call too. Reckless tackle is another judgement call, backed up by the position and movement of the tackler and BC.

    "Players must not do anything reckless or dangerous to others": reckless is when you (should) know there's a reasonable chance of something being dangerous to a fellow player. I think flying off your feet at full speed into someone much smaller than you is reckless at age grade.

    Teenagers are poor at risk estimation (through no fault of their own, but their brains aren't fully developed), and if you don't give a sanction to that level of risk then you calibrate things badly. At U14 some kids have half-beards and muscles and some are still skinny schoolkids who haven't had their hormone rush yet, so the big guy just wants to show off his new size and make a big hit like he sees on the telly, but on a child whose body is not prepared for that. I had a case like that last year, and had to talk to the player and coach to explain my concerns because the kids being tackled have to a) go to school the next day and b) stay interested in rugby long enough that their own bodies develop. As a ref, it's my job to set acceptable levels.

  3. #13

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    I am tempted to say the tackle was perfectly legal (as best i can see on that video).

    Wrapped him up.
    Below the shoulder.
    Didn't lift him beyond the horizontal.

    Just unfortunate that the drive flipped him over.
    The key for me is that there was no lifting of the legs.
    Appreciate the opposing view. Where I take issue with this is that I don't think the absence of a [b]lift[b] exonerates him - the tackler is pretty clearly the cause of the ball carrier being flipped. And the fact that he left his feet to do so meant there was no possibility of controlling the landing. Given the outcome of head-to-floor contact, I don't think you can wipe this off as "unfortunate" - it's reckless, and therefore liable to sanction.
    If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you... you must be a rugby referee!

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the universe..." - Albert Einstein

  4. #14

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Anyway a generalized "excessive force" Law is surely on its way
    For all practical purposes, one exists - it is neatly covered by 9.11 "Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others." I would contend that any force that you consider excessive, you also view as at least one of reckless or dangerous.
    If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you... you must be a rugby referee!

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the universe..." - Albert Einstein

  5. #15

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by Taff View Post
    My answer would be "I'll recognise it when I see it OK!. And that looked excessive to me gents."

    Hopefully, the White player had a breather, dusted himself down and got on with the game. I don't like the phrase, but we'd have to "manage it" somehow.
    I would tend to agree with "I know if when I see it" - and for me, I saw it in that video!

    I don't know for certain the truth of the outcome, but various comments surrounding the video suggest that the white-shirted ball carrier was knocked unconscious in this incident.
    If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you... you must be a rugby referee!

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the universe..." - Albert Einstein

  6. #16

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo View Post
    For all practical purposes, one exists - it is neatly covered by 9.11 "Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others." I would contend that any force that you consider excessive, you also view as at least one of reckless or dangerous.
    Reckless and dangerous have been around for ages
    Excessive Force is different, and new

  7. #17
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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_NL View Post
    No. But the tackle in the clip will not be just a tackle 99.9999% of the time.

    Intentional knock-on is a judgement call, which you back up by positioning and game situation. So is cynical play. Late tackle is a judgement call too. Reckless tackle is another judgement call, backed up by the position and movement of the tackler and BC.

    "Players must not do anything reckless or dangerous to others": reckless is when you (should) know there's a reasonable chance of something being dangerous to a fellow player. I think flying off your feet at full speed into someone much smaller than you is reckless at age grade.

    Teenagers are poor at risk estimation (through no fault of their own, but their brains aren't fully developed), and if you don't give a sanction to that level of risk then you calibrate things badly. At U14 some kids have half-beards and muscles and some are still skinny schoolkids who haven't had their hormone rush yet, so the big guy just wants to show off his new size and make a big hit like he sees on the telly, but on a child whose body is not prepared for that. I had a case like that last year, and had to talk to the player and coach to explain my concerns because the kids being tackled have to a) go to school the next day and b) stay interested in rugby long enough that their own bodies develop. As a ref, it's my job to set acceptable levels.
    While the initial view might be that he flew in off his feet, closer inspection actually shows he pretty much had his left foot planted at the point of contact and it was subsequent mechanics and momentum that took him into the air.

    If he were to have flown off his feet like a missile, then one might argue that if you are not to tackle a player while he is in the air then you laws should be balanced and that the tackler should not be be allowed to tackle in the air.

    As much as a self preservation instinct would want me to wish otherwise, for me this was not an obvious illegal tackle. We can chalk it down to perhaps one of those things to be reckoned as a perfect storm with such an unfortunate outcome.

    This is yet a further piece of evidence that could be used to support the case for the evolution and revision of the tackle laws and the need to address size, weight and skills imbalances in youth and mini rugby. Also as a parent of a seventeen year old who weighs in at 9st and just 5 ft 6, I have my heart in my mouth when see him play. He is able to punch well above his weight because he is actually a half decent player, plays in a position that is suited to his size and ability and one that I am comfortable with. Unfortuanately I do not have the same element of oversight or knowledge of the opposition.

  8. #18

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    If that is allowed in the youth game , we will no longer have a youth game...

  9. #19
    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckieB View Post
    This is yet a further piece of evidence that could be used to support the case for the evolution and revision of the tackle laws and the need to address size, weight and skills imbalances in youth and mini rugby.
    If you're refereeing, you can address it.

    6.5.a The referee is the sole judge of fact and of law during a match. The referee must apply the laws of the game fairly in every match.

    9.11 Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others.

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    Default Re: South African schoolboy rugby viral tackle video

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_NL View Post
    If you're refereeing, you can address it.

    6.5.a The referee is the sole judge of fact and of law during a match. The referee must apply the laws of the game fairly in every match.

    9.11 Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others.
    Locking the stable door.....

    My point is about reducing the incidences rather than applying a sanction after the event. That should be our concern here.

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