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Thread: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

      
  1. #281

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_NL View Post

    I also don't think there's any more to be gained from this discussion besides the dubious honour of having the last word.
    Well, you r correct

    How bout a joke to calm things down

    Agnostic: So why are you a Christian?

    NKW: Well, umm, ah, well my parents were Christian, their parents were Christian, and well their parents were Christian.

    Agnostic: So you became a Christian then?

    NKW: yes, well ahh, YES

    Agnostic: So if your parents were morons, and their parents were morons, and their parents were also morons, What would that make you?

    NKW: A rugby referee

  2. #282
    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    What disciplinary panels do is not what judicial courts do, what civil courts do is not what criminal courts do, what the high court does is not what the UN does; they all set sanctions, in different forms for different reasons. There are reasons behind Folau not facing a disciplinary match ban where Bastareaud did. There are reasons people are upset at Paddy Jackson getting a contract with London Irish, similarly. It doesn't seem confusing or unfair to me, accounting for different categories and institutions.

  3. #283

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post



    If you support the LGBQT community, then you de facto oppose Folau's viewpoint











    Amazing how you are able to attribute thought of others. You had better read that article again.

  4. #284

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_NL View Post
    The main problem with Folau's statement for RA is that it paints a connection between rugby and homophobia, and makes the sport appear unwelcoming towards gay people who might want to play.

    Not just play.

    Watch, support, coach, referee, administer, groundswork,cook teas/catering staff, physio/medical staff,stewards, bars staff, back room staff ... the list incorpoartes anybody in society that may come in contact with rugby union in Australia

    didds

  5. #285

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Well they are kinda the same thing .. which is why I made the comparison

    If they are the same thing we should expect to see the same sort of sanction .. ie a three or four week ban ?

    Not sure what sanction was handed to Folau following his first indiscretion last year. Maybe it was similar to MB's???

    What sanction then for repeat/serial offenders?


    The Folau appeal process is likely to play out all the way through the courts and will no doubt drag more comments form organisations/groups who basically disagree with each other eg: Christian lobby groups v LGBTI community, and will move way beyond the arguments of what should be acceptable in the Rugby world. It's going to get real messy. Folau will be seen as a martyr by Christians and Christian lobby groups. Not sure what gay Christians would be feeling at this stage. It must be terribly hard for them to practice their faith and be part of that religious community whilst keeping secret their sexuality. How can they ever feel comfortable about coming out when they are being told they are going to hell unless they repent? That they are going to hell unless they choose not to be the person they had no choice in being?

    The whole problem with the Isreal Folau view/belief is that he and his religious supporters i.e. people who support his view, preach as though a gay person has made a choice to be gay, that one day they woke up and said, "You know what? I think I'd like to become a vegetarian, buy a new car, join a gym and oh yes, maybe I might become gay as well".


    The marriage equality debate in Australia made a lot of people realise that being gay is not a choice and the vast majority of those people responded by supporting the Yes vote. The overwhelming theme that I witnessed posted on social media by so called Christian groups was the idea that being gay was a lifestyle choice. I joined one of the Christian lobby group's Facebook groups to put forward an alternate view. I adhered to the group's forum rules regarding tone of posts, not vilifying or abusing other members etc. I was quickly banned (3 days) whilst many "Christian" members displayed a level of bigotry that was hard to fathom. Some business owners even claimed that if a gay person was to shop at their business, they would find a way not to serve them or sell goods to them. The arguments about "choice" were consistent.


    To those who feel the whole IF situation has been blown out of proportion, hold onto your hats. This whole thing is just getting started.


    To end this post I would just say,

    Have your beliefs, practice your religion and long may you be free to do so, but keep your outdated, bigoted views about "lifestyle choices" to yourself and don't shove your beliefs down other people's throats on social media and cause another young person who may be struggling to work out who or what they are to question if life is worth all the hassle.
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

  6. #286

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    It's a very interesting topic.
    A hundred years ago most educated people in the west probably thought societies values came from the church.
    Nowadays we see society leading the church.

    It's a big battle , playing out on the rugby field .

    The next step will be whether players are allowed to even belong to churches with bad values (even if they don't speak about them)

    Sounds silly ? Not really we wouldn't allow players to belong to the KKK as long as they kept quiet about their racism. We wouldn't tolerate players belonging to ISIS even if they kept quiet about the jihad.

    So perhaps it won't be long before WR proscribe certain churches

  7. #287

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    Not just play.

    Watch, support, coach, referee, administer, groundswork,cook teas/catering staff, physio/medical staff,stewards, bars staff, back room staff ... the list incorpoartes anybody in society that may come in contact with rugby union in Australia

    didds
    Indeed, one of the problems RA would have faced had they not taken taken a hard line with Folau was a potential lawsuit by any LGBTQ employee on the basis that their lack of action would effectively put them in conflict with Australian Laws regarding the provision of a safe environment in the workplace.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Folau will be seen as a martyr by Christians and Christian lobby groups. Not sure what gay Christians would be feeling at this stage. It must be terribly hard for them to practice their faith and be part of that religious community whilst keeping secret their sexuality. How can they ever feel comfortable about coming out when they are being told they are going to hell unless they repent? That they are going to hell unless they choose not to be the person they had no choice in being?
    I would like to point out that, as far as Christians go, it is only a very limited number of fundamentalist or hard-line Christian groups who hold this view. Many other groups have an entirely different way of approaching this. many other denominations, for example the "Community of Christ" (an offshoot of the Mormons) extend the sacrament of marriage to same-sex couples in jurisdictions where gay marriage is legal, and provide covenant commitment ceremonies where it is not legal. They also allow the ordination of gays and lesbians to the priesthood. The Evangelical Lutheran Church allows for LGBTQ+ marriage and ordination of LGBTQ+ clergy. Their policy states that LGBTQ+ individuals are welcome and encouraged to become members and to participate in the life of the congregation.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    The marriage equality debate in Australia made a lot of people realise that being gay is not a choice and the vast majority of those people responded by supporting the Yes vote. The overwhelming theme that I witnessed posted on social media by so called Christian groups was the idea that being gay was a lifestyle choice. I joined one of the Christian lobby group's Facebook groups to put forward an alternate view. I adhered to the group's forum rules regarding tone of posts, not vilifying or abusing other members etc. I was quickly banned (3 days) whilst many "Christian" members displayed a level of bigotry that was hard to fathom. Some business owners even claimed that if a gay person was to shop at their business, they would find a way not to serve them or sell goods to them. The arguments about "choice" were consistent.
    I debate YECs (Young Earth Creationists) on another forum. This is a group of people who are convinced the Earth is only 6,000 years old (+change), was created by God and that everything in the NT and OT is literal truth, and anyone who doesn't agree with all of this will burn in hell. They believe that evolution is bunkum, and the fossil record is faked by satan-worshipping scientists. When you start pointing out the gaping holes in their theories, they respond with the most vile bigotry you could imagine. You just cannot have a reasoned debate with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    To end this post I would just say,

    Have your beliefs, practice your religion and long may you be free to do so, but keep your outdated, bigoted views about "lifestyle choices" to yourself and don't shove your beliefs down other people's throats on social media and cause another young person who may be struggling to work out who or what they are to question if life is worth all the hassle.
    Amen and hallelujah to that
    "Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
    - Jay "Utah" Windley

  8. #288

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post




    I debate YECs (Young Earth Creationists) on another forum.
    I've heard they have a helluva fullback

  9. #289

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    The next step will be whether players are allowed to even belong to churches with bad values (even if they don't speak about them)

    Sounds silly ? Not really we wouldn't allow players to belong to the KKK as long as they kept quiet about their racism. We wouldn't tolerate players belonging to ISIS even if they kept quiet about the jihad.
    I entirely get where that comes from ... I guess all such an approach would mean is that membership of such orgainsations would become "underground".

    How do we know that current players etc are not already members of such style orgainsations?

    In the same way that how do we know who is gay, if they have not yet come out?

    didds

  10. #290

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    World Rugby may have to study the credo of various churches and draw lists of proscribed organisations

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