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Thread: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

      
  1. #541

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    Depends who you see as being your enemy. Folau is being selective in his bible quoting
    Sun Tzu's The Art of War, Illustrated (Chapter 3: Attack By Stratagem)
    3.18 Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat

    Li Ch`uan cites the case of Fu Chien, prince of Ch`in, who in 383 A.D. marched with a vast army against the Chin Emperor. When warned not to despise an enemy who could command the services of such men as Hsieh An and Huan Ch`ung, he boastfully replied: "I have the population of eight provinces at my back, infantry and horsemen to the number of one million; why, they could dam up the Yangtsze River itself by merely throwing their whips into the stream. What danger have I to fear?" Nevertheless, his forces were soon after disastrously routed at the Fei River, and he was obliged to beat a hasty retreat.
    Sun Tzu himself viewed the ideal general as an enlightened Taoist master. Taoism is both a philosophy and a religion.
    I think you missed the point, which was, that if you are going to take someone on, its best to know what they are about.

    I am a regular on a skeptic's forum where my main two sets of opponents are Young Earth Creationists and the Flat Earth/Space is Fake crowd... yes, there are people who beleive that there is no such thing as space, and the space programmes of all countries is fake; I kid you not! As a born again atheist, I do have reasonable knowledge of things biblical, and I love confounding YEC's and turning them into pretzels by showing them that their bible doesn't really say what they think it says.

    NOTE: I also debate against those idots who think Trump is a great president, but that is another story
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 16-06-19 at 21:06.
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  2. #542

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Heres a detailed discussion of how Israel Folau's case might be determined in English Law , were this a case in England
    .
    http://rugbyandthelaw.com/2019/06/10...-israel-folau/
    "Rhetoric such as that which Folau is spreading is the foundation of prejudice towards homosexuals and the LGBT+ community in modern society. It is archaic views about the way the world should be, derived from orthodox religious teachings which are the root of homophobia. To spread such views is to spread and to further entrench prejudice, hate and discrimination against people who have no choice about who they are and who they love. In the same way that racist beliefs inspired by certain religious sects have been widely condemned throughout recent history, so must homophobia be. Sexual orientation, like race, is an immutable characteristic. Folau’s views are antithetical to the values of rugby union and the values of Rugby Australia and are thus, in my view, rightly to be considered ‘gross misconduct’, regardless of the wording of his contract."

    This writer gets it, in the way that some here seem not to.


    As to the rest is the article, I think we can stick a fork in Folau... he's done.


    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    And meanwhile, Folau is going completely mad.
    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/06/1...nder-children/
    He just can't keep his bigoted mouth shut can he?
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  3. #543

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    I would argue that it does. Everything in an employment contract is part of the relationship with the employer.
    You are missing the point. One of the questions now is "what is and is not allowable in an employment contract". ie just because an employer puts a clause in a contract may not necessarily make it enforceable. (eg can a McDonalds employee be contractually barred from eating at KFC?)
    Last edited by Dickie E; 16-06-19 at 22:06.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  4. #544

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    You are missing the point. One of the questions now is "what is and is not allowable in an employment contract". ie just because an employer puts a clause in a contract may not necessarily make it enforceable. (eg can a McDonalds employee be contractually barred from eating at KFC?)
    No they cannot, but they CAN be barred from making public comments disparaging other people on the basis of race, colour, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation etc. That those comments may be beliefs of the employee, religious or otherwise, is irrelevant.

    Some people still don't understand that freedom to hold religious views does not give the holder the absolute right to express their views, and that freedom of speech does not give the speaker the right to say anything they like without consequences.
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  5. #545

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    You are missing the point. One of the questions now is "what is and is not allowable in an employment contract". ie just because an employer puts a clause in a contract may not necessarily make it enforceable. (eg can a McDonalds employee be contractually barred from eating at KFC?)
    You make a good point.
    Usually, if you sign a contract, without being under duress, the terms are considered binding.

    However, the needle may be turning slightly as to the reasonableness of the clause. In California, for example, Non Disclose/Non Competes are virtually unenforceable in most circumstances, even though people sign them when joining a company. They've generally held that the the threat of employment being taken away makes it an unreasonable restraint.

    if you were to apply the same reasoning in this case, Folau would have a slight chance. His case would be complicated by the fact that:
    1) RA was not his only employer
    2) He gave an undertaking that he then broke. RA would argue that they always give a second chance, and are therefore reasonable. They would also argue that they aren't constraining belief, simply statements that could create a HWE for other employees. And in fairness, they have a point on that.

    It will be interesting case law, for sure.

    Emotionally I agree with Ian. Professionally (for I is in HR and Employment Law), it's more nuanced and interesting.
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    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

  6. #546

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Hard cases make bad law, and if Folau wins this, it will be really bad for everyone; Pandora's Box will be opened.

    Religious speech in Australia will be granted some kind of special protected status. Members of religions will then be allowed to spread hate and discrimination against others with impunity and the Law on their side, and it won't just be limited to employment scenarios.

    Once that happens, it won't be long before Australian hate groups such as Antipodean Resistance, Reclaim Australia and United Patriots Front start claiming they are religions, and use the protection of the law to further their vile agendas.
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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    I agree Ian, which is why I think ultimately he will lose, or will else win but with very narrow terms attached to stop what you're worried about.

    if I were a betting man - and I'm not, unless I'm sure - I'd think:
    He will lose.
    It would be held that people have a right to expression, save where it is detrimental to anyone based on a protected characteristic. Christians want to say that all non-believers are going to hell? Knock your socks off.
    Want to say that women, or homosexuals, or Indigenous people (all, I believe, protected characteristics) are going to hell - problem.

    It's a tricky balancing act. Not all rights are necessarily equal, which is a difficult truth. I personally would hold that people freely hold rights; the issue comes where two rights come into conflict with each other. In that case, I generally hold that the right being exercised that is oppressive to the existence of the other right loses.

    EG: You have free speech. If your free speech puts down a group of people oppressively, then you shouldn't be able to say it without fear of repercussion.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
    Marcus Aurelius

    Man may do as he will; he may not will what he wills
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    ?

    I run a businees and our biggest customer is Cachet Windows. To show my support, I put a clearly worded clause in my employment contracts that employees must only buy their windows from Cachet. I hire an employee who, without duress, signs his contract. Bugger me, but he's not been in the job a year and he buys his new double glazed conservatory from Cachet's competitor, W-Windows. Not only that, he's boasting on social media about how good it is.

    To sack or not to sack?

    I'm a nice guy so I give him a second chance.

    But then Cachet gets wind of the media posts and demands that I sack him or they'll cancel their business with me.

    Mindful of the Golden Rule, I sack him.

    All good?
    Wouldn't that be the White Golden Rule ??


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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    NOTE: I also debate against those idots who think Trump is a great president, but that is another story
    Best post ever. Gold, pure gold.

    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 22 Hours Ago at 16:06.

    and it survived an edit, does Sunny mention attention to detail in any Chapter.

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