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Thread: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

      
  1. #751

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    I suspect the contracts don't have a role model clause. Code of Conducts also aren't contractually enforceable in general too as they can be changed without consultation. They generally don't form part of the employment Ts and Cs such as pay etc. CoCs can be referred to but they can be change and amended without changing or signing of a new contract. This is why they're generally not contractually enforceable.
    In general in the UK, and even then I'm not sure you're 100% right. CoCs can be seen as policies, which may be from time to time be changed...

    In the USA, CoCs are considered changeable and enforceable.
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    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

  2. #752

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    One potential employer had this to say about IF
    Quote Originally Posted by Mourad
    The guy is a moron, he must leave. Or you have to buy a brain
    Source: Toulon owner Mourad Boudjellal

    I told Raelene if she felt the situation had become untenable, that I was hurting Rugby Australia, its sponsors and the Australian rugby community...I would walk away immediately.” Israel Folau
    He talks the talk, but he won’t walk the walk. Doesn’t that make him a liar? What was it he said about hell fire?
    Drew Mitchell seems to think so.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 1 Week Ago at 16:07.
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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    In general in the UK, and even then I'm not sure you're 100% right. CoCs can be seen as policies, which may be from time to time be changed...

    In the USA, CoCs are considered changeable and enforcehe Uable.
    in the UK CoC are very standard.

    If you ever need to dismiss an employee on grounds of conduct it's going to be a lot more straightforward if
    - you have a conduct policy
    - you have a disciplinary process
    - both are reasonable and fair, and followed.

    https://www.gov.uk/dismiss-staff/dis...onduct-grounds

    We have had several cases that revolve around religious expression. They are often complex cases.

    So are cases that revolve around whether employees have - or have not - said something offensie and, if so, how offensive really was it ? (on a scale of reprimand through warning though dismissal)

    I am sure UK is not that different from Australia in principle - but of course that doesn't mean any individual case would be decided in the same way
    Last edited by crossref; 1 Week Ago at 20:07.

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    So are cases that revolve around whether employees have - or have not - said something offensie and, if so, how offensive really was it ? (on a scale of reprimand through warning though dismissal)
    In the first instance yes, it matters how serious or how offensive it was. Even if Folau's initial homophobic attack was weak, or not really an attack or not truly offensive, it was still a breach of his CoC. And he got a warning.

    However, once he

    a. repeated the attack
    b. refused to take the attack(s) down.
    c. stated that he couldn't or wouldn't guarantee he would not commit the same breach again.

    ...then it is no longer about how offensive it was, and more about his intransigence; his wilful refusal to follow the terms of his contract and CoC. For example, if a player keeps turning up late to training sessions, that is not in any way illegal or offensive, but it will still be a breach of his CoC, so he can still be warned for it, and if he then says "I'll bloody well turn up when I feel like it", well that could get his contract terminated.

    That player, and Folau, are effectively extending their middle fingers at their employer.... and sorry, that is just not acceptable, and is grounds for contract termination.
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 1 Week Ago at 21:07.
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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    yes, well I was talking in general terms, but clearly you are correct the warning is relevant.

    Meanwhile perhaps we can all have our spirits uplifted by James Haskell at the weekend

    https://twitter.com/Ellierosebs/stat...11381885804544

    D--fG2KXkAAWddK.jpg


    And people might be interested to know that the RFU marched for the first time at Pride.

    I supent those gestures (and many many like them) in the long run will make more impact than sacking IF
    Last edited by crossref; 1 Week Ago at 21:07.

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Meanwhile in New Zealand this is interesting -- Steve Hansen offers an unwelcome opinion on radio

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...a-gender-thing
    Last edited by crossref; 1 Week Ago at 22:07.

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Meanwhile in New Zealand this is interesting -- Steve Hansen offers an unwelcome opinion on radio

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...a-gender-thing

    Yeah, he's right - that is, domestic violence is not exclusively "male partner beats up female partner". There is plenty of domestic violence where the male is the victim but its rarely reported, mostly because of male pride. Most men would not want to admit to their chums that they are getting beat up by a woman.

    Anyone who denies that men can be victims of domestic violence is living in Loopy Lou land.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8309921.html
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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    If IF gets canned because of what he thinks, it's beyond ridiculous to think that someone who actually landed hands on someone gets a pass.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
    Marcus Aurelius

    Man may do as he will; he may not will what he wills
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

  9. #759

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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    If IF gets canned because of what he thinks, it's beyond ridiculous to think that someone who actually landed hands on someone gets a pass.
    If true, then I agree, but if you are talking about Reece, well he didn't get a pass.

    In October 2018, he was discharged without conviction by Judge Denise Clark (Hamilton District Court). She said

    "a conviction would have ended the Fijian-born player's Irish contract and that would have been out of all proportion to the gravity of the offending".

    "I have considered your circumstances and it's certainly not the case that because you are good at playing rugby that you get the opportunity to be discharged without conviction."


    Judge Clark accepted that the victim had forgiven Reece, that the couple were undergoing counselling, Reece had admitted a problem with alcohol and had been sober for three months. Reece expressed remorse and apologised at a restorative justice meeting, and he was supported in court by a young woman and other associates.

    Judge Clark took into account his early guilty plea, the fact it was his first time before the courts. He was ordered to pay his victim $750 within 28 days for emotional harm reparation.

    It was after all this, after his Irish contract (to play for Connaught) fell through, that Crusader's coach Scott Robertson offered Reece a lifeline, first to play in the pre-season, and later to play the full season after another player was injured. Anyone who knows anything about NZ Rugby, especially the Crusaders, will know that such a lifeline offered to a player in Reece's position, comes with conditions as to their conduct on and off the field.

    Now while I am all for punishment for crimes, I am not in favour of punishing and punishing and punishing endlessly. If we simply punish Reece in this way he ends up consigned to the scrap heap, and we've fixed nothing. He is providing for a family so it punishes them too; if he is providing for his partner, we end up punishing the victim. The whole focus in dealing with domestic violence in NZ isn't on punishment, its on prevention; its on having friends and family getting offenders to stop by getting them to get help..

    This is one of a series of anti-domestic violence TV ads currently running in New Zealand.



    This country has the shameful record of having the highest rate of family violence in the developed world, but it has been shown time and again that this sort of approach is far more effective than punishing and threatening punishment and throwing people in a dumpster.
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 1 Week Ago at 00:07.
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    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ed-persecution

    Baptist minister says there is no real risk of religious persecution in Australia compared with many other countries

    The social justice advocate Tim Costello has called on his fellow Christians to “calm down” about their alleged persecution, amid a brewing political storm over how the government should act to protect against religious discrimination.

    Costello, speaking in his new role as a senior fellow at the Centre for Public Christianity, also warned that the federal government should not try to legislate to cover “extreme” examples of competing rights, citing the high-profile Israel Folau case as an example.

    The former chief advocate for World Vision Australia is backing the recommendations of the Ruddock review into religious discrimination, but has dismissed calls from conservative Coalition MPs for a religious freedom bill.

    He said he did not see any evidence of the persecution of Christians in Australia, and said they needed to “suck it up”, just like Jesus.

    “I don’t think there is a risk of persecution – Christians need to calm down,” Costello said.

    “I would say to Christians if you want to see persecution, let me take you to places where there is persecution of Christians and other religious groups – let me take you to Afghanistan, Syria, Pakistan, and I will show you persecution.

    “And if they read their Bibles, Jesus said the world will hate you and misunderstand you for following me, but to go on following, loving, serving – so I would say, just suck it up.

    “Jesus didn’t go around demanding legislation to protect his rights. Jesus didn’t advocate for freedom of religion legislation.”
    "Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
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