Page 86 of 94 FirstFirst ... 3676828384858687888990 ... LastLast
Results 851 to 860 of 933

Thread: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

      
  1. #851

    Promises to Referee in France
    L'irlandais's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    CT Alsace-Lorraine
    Grade
    EdR + LCA
    Join Date
    11 May 10
    Posts
    4,430
    Thanks (Received)
    45
    Likes (Received)
    241

    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Your analogy doesn’t reflect the situation. European and American women are being obliged (usually by their own employers) to wear full burkas when on business in some Gulf states. Local religious laws imposed irrespective of the beliefs of the guests.
    In turn some of these traditionalists come to France and completely flout local custom, which is secular. Keeping slaves in their hotels, when slavery has been out lawed here for some time. By coming to a country where wearing of visible signs of religion are frowned upon and wearing the full Burka in public, bears no relation to your analogy. What people do in the privacy of their own homes is not under scrutiny here in France. These traditionalists also require all infels to convert or die. Is that an option you propose to folks who visit your home, put the slippers on or face indefinite imprisonment and heafty fines? Most friends of mine, though they wear slippers around their house, they are loathe to ask guests to do the same. Or of they do prefer you to, then they have a supply of hotel-style slippers by the door.

    Anyway my point was this, if for them it is normal for local laws to be respected, as in when we go to their country we don’t choose what we do or do not respect. Then when they visit the Western World, the same ruling applies. European countries may choose to respect their wishes, but they cannot impose their religious laws in a sovereign country that has opted for secularism.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 25-07-19 at 13:07.
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
    John Henry Newman

  2. #852

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    17,914
    Thanks (Received)
    146
    Likes (Received)
    1812

    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    bringing this back to inclusion in rugby (why not?), we might consider the odd situation we have with tights/leggings.

    The issue that WR faced was one of modesty, for cultural/religious reasons some players, mostly women, want to cover their legs, and WR (quite reasonably IMO) decided this was a valid desire and changed the Laws to allow it.

    but - rather oddly - the right to wear tights was given not to players with sincere religious/cultural reasons ... but simply to women.

    So men who wish to keep their legs covered for modesty reasons cannot
    meanwhile any women who perceive tights to be a competitive advantage (warmth, anti-tackle slippiness?) can wear them and gain that advantage.

  3. #853

    Referees in America
    Not Kurt Weaver's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Ohio
    Grade
    C3
    Join Date
    11 Sep 08
    Posts
    2,039
    Thanks (Received)
    14
    Likes (Received)
    110
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    Your analogy doesn’t reflect the situation. European and American women are being obliged (usually by their own employers) to wear full burkas when on business in some Gulf states. Local religious laws imposed irrespective of the beliefs of the guests.
    In turn some of these traditionalists come to France and completely flout local custom, which is secular. Keeping slaves in their hotels, when slavery has been out lawed here for some time. By coming to a country where wearing of visible signs of religion are frowned upon and wearing the full Burka in public, bears no relation to your analogy. What people do in the privacy of their own homes is not under scrutiny here in France. These traditionalists also require all infels to convert or die. Is that an option you propose to folks who visit your home, put the slippers on or face indefinite imprisonment and heafty fines? Most friends of mine, though they wear slippers around their house, they are loathe to ask guests to do the same. Or of they do prefer you to, then they have a supply of hotel-style slippers by the door.

    Anyway my point was this, if for them it is normal for local laws to be respected, as in when we go to their country we don’t choose what we do or do not respect. Then when they visit the Western World, the same ruling applies. European countries may choose to respect their wishes, but they cannot impose their religious laws in a sovereign country that has opted for secularism.
    That slavery example is a crime by the guest, correct? Send guest home or arrest?

    Sounds like France has discovered one of pitfalls of being secular. How to enforce it? Declaring a nation as secular doesn't make religion go away. Just an FYI for me (so it is FNKW), do priests and nuns wear robes or headgear? Can Christians wear a cross on their neck?, Can Jews wear yamaka? I realize the face is not covered in these cases. But quite honestly, the face cover fact is the only difference and it does become seem anti-muslim.
    Last edited by Not Kurt Weaver; 25-07-19 at 13:07.

  4. #854

    Referees in America
    Not Kurt Weaver's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Ohio
    Grade
    C3
    Join Date
    11 Sep 08
    Posts
    2,039
    Thanks (Received)
    14
    Likes (Received)
    110
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    bringing this back to inclusion in rugby (why not?), we might consider the odd situation we have with tights/leggings.

    The issue that WR faced was one of modesty, for cultural/religious reasons some players, mostly women, want to cover their legs, and WR (quite reasonably IMO) decided this was a valid desire and changed the Laws to allow it.

    but - rather oddly - the right to wear tights was given not to players with sincere religious/cultural reasons ... but simply to women.

    So men who wish to keep their legs covered for modesty reasons cannot
    meanwhile any women who perceive tights to be a competitive advantage (warmth, anti-tackle slippiness?) can wear them and gain that advantage.
    Good example, in this case rugby is not inclusive as we have declared. Maybe inclusivity, as stated, only applies to sexual preference in regard to rugby. We have certainly concluded that inclusivity in rugby does not apply to religious expression as per case of IF.
    Last edited by Not Kurt Weaver; 25-07-19 at 13:07.

  5. #855

    Promises to Referee in France
    L'irlandais's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    CT Alsace-Lorraine
    Grade
    EdR + LCA
    Join Date
    11 May 10
    Posts
    4,430
    Thanks (Received)
    45
    Likes (Received)
    241

    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    IRFU tell Tallaght Rugby Club their player Ruba Rosalina Bukhatwa can don headdress. (Looks like she has to do so under a scrum cap, but at least it’s inclusive)

    It’s nothing new in Muslim countries, today there’s a lot of girls in Malaysia who are wearing a hijab to play rugby.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norfarahana Aziz
    Women’s National team player: You can play rugby with wearing a hijab and this, there is a solution by wearing a scrum cap
    Notice they have arms and legs fully covered, looks more like a disadvantage for the ball carrier. Difficult to slip out of a tackle. So I think rugby is inclusive, it has certainly been my experience in Ireland and France. It’s just Rugby doesn’t support bigots very well, but that’s not a sign of not being inclusive. There are simply limits to what is acceptable, IF past that limit.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 25-07-19 at 15:07.
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
    John Henry Newman

  6. #856

    Referees in America
    Not Kurt Weaver's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Ohio
    Grade
    C3
    Join Date
    11 Sep 08
    Posts
    2,039
    Thanks (Received)
    14
    Likes (Received)
    110
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    IRFU tell Tallaght Rugby Club their player Ruba Rosalina Bukhatwa can don headdress. (Looks like she has to do so under a scrum cap, but at least it’s inclusive)

    It’s nothing new in Muslim countries, today there’s a lot of girls in Malaysia who are wearing a hijab to play rugby.

    Notice they have arms and legs fully covered, looks more like a disadvantage for the ball carrier. Difficult to slip out of a tackle. So I think rugby is inclusive, it has certainly been my experience in Ireland and France. It’s just Rugby doesn’t support bigots very well, but that’s not a sign of not being inclusive. There are simply limits to what is acceptable, IF past that limit.
    It is not inclusive because it does not include men who wish to wear leggins. One could say it is sexist.

    What is good for the gander, is good for the goose.
    Last edited by Not Kurt Weaver; 25-07-19 at 15:07.

  7. #857

    Referees in America
    Not Kurt Weaver's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Ohio
    Grade
    C3
    Join Date
    11 Sep 08
    Posts
    2,039
    Thanks (Received)
    14
    Likes (Received)
    110
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    There are simply limits to what is acceptable, IF past that limit.

    quite honestly, IF statement falls under sticks and stones. He is a rugby player, that is his credibility. Choose role models carefully, they will fail, but the admirer also will learn from that failure.

    The problem with claiming inclusivity is that one person's past the limits is not identical to another person's. I've ask you before, Who decides what is past the limit? Eventually the limit will include something near to you. For example, would rugby ban someone with the cross tatooed to their forehead, or rugby ban some one with IF infamous quote tatooed to their forearm.

  8. #858

    Referees in America
    Rank Bajin!
    SimonSmith's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Virginia (USA)
    Grade
    B3
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    8,457
    Thanks (Received)
    61
    Likes (Received)
    794

    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    *sigh*
    USA R have been explicit that leggings should be allowed for all. Quite whether this is a strive for equality or a simply desire to remove any barriers for anyone at all playing is open for debate*

    The limit should be simple: if your belief can be reasonably held to oppress or denigrate another group, you shouldn't be able to say/display it in public.


    *it isn't open for debate. They're desperate for playing numbers.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
    Marcus Aurelius

    Man may do as he will; he may not will what he wills
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

  9. #859

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    17,914
    Thanks (Received)
    146
    Likes (Received)
    1812

    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    *

    The limit should be simple: if your belief can be reasonably held to oppress or denigrate another group, you shouldn't be able to say/display it in public.

    .
    Or we could allow a bit of rough and tumble, call people out when they are objectionable but carry on playing rugby.

    (obviously, yes, up to a limit and who decides it... Etc etc)

  10. #860

    Referees in America
    Not Kurt Weaver's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Ohio
    Grade
    C3
    Join Date
    11 Sep 08
    Posts
    2,039
    Thanks (Received)
    14
    Likes (Received)
    110
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    USA R have been explicit that leggings should be allowed for all. Quite whether this is a strive for equality or a simply desire to remove any barriers for anyone at all playing is open for debate*

    .
    USA, USA, USA, USA well USA R leading the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    The limit should be simple: if your belief can be reasonably held to oppress or denigrate another group, you shouldn't be able to say/display it in public.

    .
    Does oppress or denigrate also apply to individuals, or just groups? And are there groups that can be oppressed and denigrated, like Trump supporters, evangelicals, or KKK?

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post


    *it isn't open for debate. They're desperate for playing numbers.
    Tru dat

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •