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Thread: Incorrectly taken penalty.

      
  1. #51

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    Default Re: Incorrectly taken penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post

    Scenario 2
    Apply Law 10 .. Blue 14 is offside , continue to move forward and interfere with play
    But 20.10 says there is no sanction
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
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  2. #52

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    Default Re: Incorrectly taken penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    But 20.10 says there is no sanction
    But Law 10 applies .. right ?

    What would you do ? (with Law reference)?

  3. #53

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    Default Re: Incorrectly taken penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    But Law 10 applies .. right ?

    What would you do ? (with Law reference)?
    Well it used to be a scrum, then they apparently dropped the sanction for being in front of the kicker but now you’re thinking of going with a PK.
    My point is that the laws, in some instances, have become less clear as a result of the 2018 rewrite.
    If a player is in front of the kicker at a kick-off, even if he jumps to contest the ball with a defender, we come back to the centre for a scrum.
    So now we have inconsistencies for sanctions/non-sanctions for similar infringements.
    Personally, I think the 2017 sanction of a scrum should still be in the book. It would certainly look funny to call the winger back and just say to the kicking team, “The kickoff hasn’t been taken correctly so come back and do it again”. That would mean there’s no consequence for infringing and they are likely to try it on again next week with a different ref
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  4. #54

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    Default Re: Incorrectly taken penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Well it used to be a scrum, then they apparently dropped the sanction for being in front of the kicker but now you’re thinking of going with a PK.
    My point is that the laws, in some instances, have become less clear as a result of the 2018 rewrite.
    If a player is in front of the kicker at a kick-off, even if he jumps to contest the ball with a defender, we come back to the centre for a scrum.
    So now we have inconsistencies for sanctions/non-sanctions for similar infringements.
    Personally, I think the 2017 sanction of a scrum should still be in the book. It would certainly look funny to call the winger back and just say to the kicking team, “The kickoff hasn’t been taken correctly so come back and do it again”. That would mean there’s no consequence for infringing and they are likely to try it on again next week with a different ref

    Being offside in front of a kicker is not necessarily sanctioned at all ..only if you interfere with play , as in your example.

    But stand still until you are put onside and it's play on . So most often it's play on .. (as.it.waa in 2017 for that matter.)

    So the possible outcomes under Law 10 are play or (in fact) a choice of PK or scrum back .

    But what are you doing ..and law reference ?
    Last edited by crossref; 16-04-19 at 08:04.

  5. #55

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    Default Re: Incorrectly taken penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Being offside in front of a kicker is not necessarily sanctioned at all ..only if you interfere with play , as in your example.

    But being in front of the kicker at a kickoff or restart IS sanctioned regardless of whether the infringing player/players carry on to interfere with play and the sanction is a scrum.


    Put simply, the crux of the whole argument for me is that the so called "simplified" Law book is not necessarily clearer or more simple to understand. Some infringements/non-compliances in Law 20 no longer have sanctions listed, not complying with the time requirements when taking a PK has been moved from the PK section of the book to the Scoring section (Law 8), as you have pointed out we can now find a PK sanction for things that were clearly labelled a scrum (and in my opinion should still be a scrum).

    A big part of the rewrite centred around reducing the size of the Law book. Grouping a couple of infringements and adding one line i.e. Sanction: Scrum, would not have caused a blowout in size, production costs or ink usage. But it would have made the Laws simpler and clearer. Oh wait...….. that was the whole point of their rewrite exercise.
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  6. #56

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    Default Re: Incorrectly taken penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    But being in front of the kicker at a kickoff or restart IS sanctioned regardless of whether the infringing player/players carry on to interfere with play and the sanction is a scrum.
    Is it?

    Right winger a yard in front, ball goes to the left wing.

    No way I am stopping play for that?

    Or am I missing something?

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  7. #57

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    Default Re: Incorrectly taken penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    But being in front of the kicker at a kickoff or restart IS sanctioned regardless of whether the infringing player/players carry on to interfere with play and the sanction is a scrum.


    Put simply, the crux of the whole argument for me is that the so called "simplified" Law book is not necessarily clearer or more simple to understand. Some infringements/non-compliances in Law 20 no longer have sanctions listed, not complying with the time requirements when taking a PK has been moved from the PK section of the book to the Scoring section (Law 8), as you have pointed out we can now find a PK sanction for things that were clearly labelled a scrum (and in my opinion should still be a scrum).

    A big part of the rewrite centred around reducing the size of the Law book. Grouping a couple of infringements and adding one line i.e. Sanction: Scrum, would not have caused a blowout in size, production costs or ink usage. But it would have made the Laws simpler and clearer. Oh wait...….. that was the whole point of their rewrite exercise.
    this example really isn't a 2017 v 2019 issue

    being in front of a PK in 2017 was either play on or a scrum, depending upon whether there was a material impact
    being in front of a PK is 2019 is either play on or a choice of PK / Scrum, depending upon whether there was a material impact

    In practice it's almost always going to be play on (perhaps with a shout of 'leave it! or stay!)

    Similarly being in front of a restart hasn't changed from 2017 to 2019

    The only scenario that has actually changed is the quick tap that isn't a proper tap...
    Last edited by crossref; 17-04-19 at 17:04.

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    Default Re: Incorrectly taken penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    this example really isn't a 2017 v 2019 issue... the only scenario that has actually changed is the quick tap that isn't a proper tap
    It stopped being a helpful answer to the original question about halfway down Page 2 (which is something that I think is a bit of a general issue with the forum at the moment, hence some of the various suggestions made on how to improve the structure on other threads).

  9. #59

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    Default Re: Incorrectly taken penalty.

    campaign to keep on topic!
    yes. I undertake to play my part going forward

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    Default Re: Incorrectly taken penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    campaign to keep on topic!
    yes. I undertake to play my part going forward
    Welcome to the campaign... I think the manifesto should be:
    Campaign to keep on topic AND perhaps not explore every possible edge case if it isn't helpful to the OP (at least in the Question forum)

    Speaking of which - I may now be slightly off topic.



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