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Thread: Wrong? definition of Tackled Player - time to redefine Tackler?

      
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    Default Wrong? definition of Tackled Player - time to redefine Tackler?

    While discussing no-tackler tackle situations, I have just found the definition of Tackled player might be not correct for allowing such situations, or the situation might just not allowed.



    According to the 2019 (and before) World Rugby Law Book, tackle related terms are defined as follows:
    Tackle: The method of holding a ball-carrier and bringing that player to ground.
    Tackled player: A ball-carrier who is held and taken to ground by a tackler or tacklers.
    Tackler: An opposition player who holds the tackled player and goes to ground.


    I believe a BC can become a tackled player even only with a standing opposition player who hold the tackler player and brought him to the ground.

    So a correct definition would be something like:

    Tackled player: A ball-carrier who is held and taken to ground by one or more opposition players.

    Any thoughts?


    Apart from this, maybe it is time to redefine "Tackler" more naturally back to include those on their stand. Of course we need to amend many places in the law book related to the word - e.g. a standing tackler and a tackler on the ground, etc.

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    Default Re: Wrong? definition of Tackled Player - time to redefine Tackler?

    Why? The standing player is already covered (14.4.c.1) and has different rights and responsibilities in law (14.8) than the tackler who goes to ground, it would I think be more confusing to rewrite the laws.

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    Default Re: Wrong? definition of Tackled Player - time to redefine Tackler?

    I agree with suggestion, the current definition says that wherever there is a tackled player , there are also tacklers.

    Which, as we know , is not the case

    The suggested change would make things clearer
    Last edited by crossref; 19-04-19 at 08:04.

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    Default Re: Wrong? definition of Tackled Player - time to redefine Tackler?

    Hi Mich-san & welcome to the forum.

    I wouldn't get too tangled up in definitions. The law book uses the word "tackle" in different contexts eg dangerous tackle eventhough not technically a tackle.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Wrong? definition of Tackled Player - time to redefine Tackler?

    Maybe. I just found more commonality between tackler and other players except for a few privileges to tacklers.

    For the "tackler" redefinition, I meant changing from:

    14-4. Players in a tackle are:
    a. Tackled player.
    b. Tackler(s).
    c. Others:
    i Player(s) who hold the ball-carrier during a tackle but do not go to ground.
    i Player(s) who arrive to contest possession in the tackle.
    ii Player(s) who are already on the ground.
    (Current)

    to something like:

    14-4. Players in a tackle are:
    a. Tackled player.
    b. Tackler(s).
    i Player(s) who hold the ball-carrier during a tackle and go to ground. (Standing Tackler)
    ii Player(s) who hold the ball-carrier during a tackle but do not go to ground. (Tackler on the ground)
    c. Others:
    i Player(s) who arrive to contest possession in the tackle.
    ii Player(s) who are already on the ground.
    (Suggestion)

    for making "tacklers" naturally mean those who cause a tackle situation.


    Regarding the commonality, you may go through 14-5, 6 and 8 to just see them.

    14-5. Tacklers must:
    a. Immediately release the ball and the ball-carrier after both players go to ground.
    => "Immediately release the ball and the ball-carrier " - common to tacklers and other players.
    b. Immediately move away from the tackled player and from the ball or get up.
    => common to tacklers and other players on the ground near the tackle, while not explicitly stated for other players
    c. Be on their feet before attempting to play the ball.
    => common to players on the ground
    d. Allow the tackled player to release or play the ball.
    e. Allow the tackled player to move away from the ball.
    => for d and e, common to tacklers and other players, while not explicitly stated for other players

    14-6. Tacklers may play the ball from the direction of their own goal line provided they have complied with the above responsibilities and a ruck has not formed.
    => a privilege to tackler ("Tacklers" can be rephrased to "Tacklers on the ground" in the redefined terms.)

    14-8. Other players must:
    a. Remain on their feet and release the ball and the ball-carrier immediately.
    => "release the ball and the ball-carrier immediately" - common to tacklers and other players
    b. Remain on their feet when they play the ball.
    => for a and b, "Remain on their feet" - obligation to standing players but common to tacklers and other players
    c. Arrive at the tackle from the direction of their own goal line before playing the ball.
    => obligation to non tacklers (in contrast to 14-6)
    d. Not play the ball or attempt to tackle an opponent while on the ground near the tackle.
    => common to tacklers and other players on the ground, while not explicitly stated for tacklers


    Sorry for lengthy explanation. ;->

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    Default Re: Wrong? definition of Tackled Player - time to redefine Tackler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Hi Mich-san & welcome to the forum.

    I wouldn't get too tangled up in definitions. The law book uses the word "tackle" in different contexts eg dangerous tackle eventhough not technically a tackle.
    Thanks for the warm welcome and so quick responses, which are amazing!

    Right for illegal tackles... I believe tackled players and tacklers in the law always have special meanings for their obligations and rights to be ruled, which is why they need to be defined. :->

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    Default Re: Wrong? definition of Tackled Player - time to redefine Tackler?

    Mich, you seem to be of the opinion that tacklers can still play the ball from the direction of their own goal line after regaining their feet. This is incorrect.

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    Default Re: Wrong? definition of Tackled Player - time to redefine Tackler?

    Given that 14.1 is

    For a tackle to occur, the ball-carrier is held and brought to ground by one or more opponents,

    I don't think there is any ambiguity worth worrying about. As a newbie that stuff is easy to understand (compared, for example to the offside laws..)

    I also thought a tackler could play the ball after regaining their feet but the recent law change means they have to now go through the gate, whereas before they could play the ball from any direction once they have released the tackled player and got back on their feet.

    Law quote:

    "Tacklers may play the ball from the direction of their own goal line provided they have complied with the above responsibilities and a ruck has not formed."

    Quite happy to be corrected if I have misunderstood this.

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    Default Tacklers privilege (Re: Wrong? definition of Tackled Player

    Quote Originally Posted by Decorily View Post
    Mich, you seem to be of the opinion that tacklers can still play the ball from the direction of their own goal line after regaining their feet. This is incorrect.
    Yeah. I remember we used to rule that way last year with a trial rule - tacklers also need to reenter from the gate or alike. The 2019 law seems not written in that way.

    Before:
    14-6. Tacklers may play the ball from any direction provided they have complied with the
    above responsibilities and a ruck has not formed.
    (2018)
    After:
    14-6. Tacklers may play the ball from the direction of their own goal line provided they have
    complied with the above responsibilities and a ruck has not formed.
    (2019)

    This is different from:
    14-8c. Other players must arrive at the tackle from the direction of their own goal line before playing the ball.
    (2018 and 2019)

    2019 law doesn't require a tackler to reenter from the gate. It just prohibits tacklers to play from the other side.

    I was not aware till it was told by my colleagues... ;-> Correct me if this interpretation is wrong.

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    Default Re: Tacklers privilege (Re: Wrong? definition of Tackled Player

    Quote Originally Posted by mich View Post
    2019 law doesn't require a tackler to reenter from the gate. It just prohibits tacklers to play from the other side.
    Maybe an off-the-thread topic but what do you guys think on this?

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