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Thread: 2019 Heineken Champions Cup semi-final : Saracens v Munster

      
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    Question 2019 Heineken Champions Cup semi-final : Saracens v Munster

    Exhibition rugby from Saracens. Well done to them. Munster beaten by the better team and falling well short of the mark.

    Very questionable performance from Jérome Garces. Not best served by the team of 4 either. He only finally went to the TMO with 3 minutes to go for a spear tackle. Bottled the red card, how he thought it was only yellow I don’t know.

    On the Munster try, (61 minutes) Sarries captain was screaming at the referee to look at it. (Yes I know, not good to scream at the match official, but at that stage both teams were frustrated by the lack of an off side line and poor calls from ref, around the rucks and mauls). Definitely a bad day at the office for him. The AR didn’t help there either, surely the team’s captain is entitled to speak to the match referee; but Jérome Garces refuses any communication from either team. Could have used TMO to confirm or deny Black’s suspicions about the legality of score by the Red Hooker, right? But just waved him away.

    Earlier a Maro Itoje high tackle put an end to a Munster attack, (43 minutes ish) and turned into a extraordinarily counter attack try for Sarries. Romain Poîte on the touchline tried to get the referee’s attention, to signal the high tackle but no joy. Are they not mic’d up? Sounds like he simply waves away input from his team of 4 then.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 20-04-19 at 17:04.
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    Default Re: 2019 Heineken Champions Cup semi-final : Saracens v Munster

    I didn't see the match, but I just read something about mic failures on another site. Might explain a lack of cohesiveness for the team of 3...

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    Default Re: 2019 Heineken Champions Cup semi-final : Saracens v Munster

    I guess the Bank Holiday has slowed down the appearance of highlights and full match videos.

    The issue with the Munster try was this, Saracens had the put-in to the scrum and wanted the referee to TMO the way the ball came out of that scrum. Seems like a reasonable request. What’s the worse that could happen in reviewing before awarding the try? Time off, for a couple of minutes, inconclusive footage, award the try.
    61 minutes on the clock: Well now, signs of a game rekindling here as Conor Murray steals a loose ball from Saracens five-metre scrum and Munster rapidly go wide thanks to Chris Farrell’s superb pass that ensured Sweetnam had space on his side as he took the outside line to the try-line.
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
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    Default Re: 2019 Heineken Champions Cup semi-final : Saracens v Munster

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    ..... surely the team’s captain is entitled to speak to the match referee
    A misunderstanding of the role of a captain and the referee. Whilst the captain may speak to the referee, and the referee will usually listen to the captain, there is no right of the captain to speak to the referee whenever he chooses, and the referee is perfectly within his/her rights to send the captain away.

    I regularly referee a team where the captain is constantly speaking to me, giving advice etc. Usually 20-30 minutes in I reach my breaking point and begin to send him away. I am all for open dialogue but don't take it too far.

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    Default Re: 2019 Heineken Champions Cup semi-final : Saracens v Munster

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra1922 View Post
    .

    I regularly referee a team where the captain is constantly speaking to me, giving advice etc. Usually 20-30 minutes in I reach my breaking point and begin to send him away. I am all for open dialogue but don't take it too far.
    Indeed , but are you saying something like that was happening on Saturday ?

    Otherwise I think a well behaved captain pretty much does have a right to speak respectfully to the ref..

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    Default Re: 2019 Heineken Champions Cup semi-final : Saracens v Munster

    From Definitions:
    Captain: The player nominated by a team to lead that team, consult the referee and select options relating to referee decisions.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
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    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

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    Default Re: 2019 Heineken Champions Cup semi-final : Saracens v Munster

    I get the idea that the Captain’s role is more about announcing the team’s choice of options. However if Elite referees are striving for consistency across matchs, then having an individual who systematically refuses any communication with players (or unasked for input from his own colleagues) must go against the grain. Very different approach from Wayne Barnes (in the other semi final,) who was chatting with the front rows alot.
    1:50 into this short clip.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 23-04-19 at 08:04.
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
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    Default Re: 2019 Heineken Champions Cup semi-final : Saracens v Munster

    There’s chatting and guidance, but what do you do if you have a Captain continually offering his ‘advice’ throughout the game, frequently at inappropriate moments, challenging your decisions etc. As a referee you have to be able to say no, now is not an appropriate time to discuss this or to highlight you don’t want continual guidance and challenge to your decisions.

    im all for a open dialogue, I’m usually happy to talk to captains and players, explain decisions etc. But there are limits which I must be allowed to enforce.

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    Default Re: 2019 Heineken Champions Cup semi-final : Saracens v Munster

    Wel, I am certainly not alone in thinking his dialogue is often very limited. There’s a difference between managing a captain who is trying to influence your decisions and in being the silent type week in week out. He needs to find a better balance, the team of four are entitled to give their views on occasion. And captains must be allowed the opportunity to raise concerns, or ask for clarification about interpretation of the LoTG.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 23-04-19 at 10:04.
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
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    Default Re: 2019 Heineken Champions Cup semi-final : Saracens v Munster

    I watched both matches and agree that Saracens were deserved winners of their tussle with Munster. And also agree with the OP that JG didn't have the best day at the office. There were issues with Comms as there seemed to be times when he was unable to hear or understand the TMO, but WB also had this issue in Sunday's match but was able to overcome.

    Totally agree that the late Munster try should have been reviewed due to dubious actions but, as Pat Sanderson said in his live interview "..that's rugby and you have to go with the decision on the field...".

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