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Thread: Tackle holding on a ball

      
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    Default Tackle holding on a ball

    I am sorting out the tackle-holding-on-a-ball situation.

    Here is a representative situation:

    A ball carrier (BC), Buck, in a Red (attacking) team runs into an opponent player, Rip, in a Blue (defending) team, who attempts to rip the ball. Buck resists and voluntarily drops to his one knee, while Rip is still upright and has a grip only on the ball. Then, clearly after Buck's knee drop, Rip has ripped the ball away from Buck.


    • No other players from Red was binding to Buck so no maul was formed.
    • Buck clearly had an option to stay standing but didn't do so but dropped his knee.


    a) Does holding only on a ball means holding the BC?
    b) Does BC continuously have a ball possession until the ball is completely ripped off?
    c) Does voluntarily going to ground make the tackled situation?

    My understanding is generally all yes to the 3 questions above (for me question b can be no). Thus, it is a penalty on Rip for tackle holding (14-8a). Ref should have called “Tackle. Release holding.” Even when it is not called for some reasons, it is the same penalty.

    My ruling could be "Play on." with this situation if I cannot see some registance by BC while he is on his knee but I can accept the all-yes judging as well if consistent. No acceptance for "Not releasing the ball", though.

    Any thoughts?

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    Default Re: Tackle holding on a ball

    3 yes's for me.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Tackle holding on a ball

    It's a real edge case that would be difficult to identify and diagnose in real time

    But I would say that, technically, there is no tackle as the ball carrier was neither held, nor brought to ground


    But probably all thirty players are expecting you to say "tackle! release! " and in practice that would be the best call.

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    Default Re: Tackle holding on a ball

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    But I would say that, technically, there is no tackle as the ball carrier was neither held, nor brought to ground
    Oh. So for you, they are technically a) no, b) - and c) no, but you still rule it as tackle holding as convention?

    It is acceptable as a consequence, but let me give technically sound interpretation on these.

    Technically the ball can be a part of BC (and cannot be by another interpretation), so BC is (or can be interpreted as) hold. BC has no choice (except releasing the ball) to run forward as held on his ball. I believe regarding the ball a part of BC is the convention anyway, even without explicit support from laws.

    Brought to ground is clearly defined as:
    14.2 Being brought to ground means that the ball-carrier is lying, sitting or has at least one knee on the ground or on another player who is on the ground.
    Intensions of Rip and Buck are irrelevant technically (as defined), and practically as we can see many situations where an opponent player like Rip has no intent to bring BC to ground (but hold BC up or rip a ball) and BC intentionally goes to ground. I believe that intentionally going to ground is BC's good skill to control timing and posture for safety and tactics.

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    Default Re: Tackle holding on a ball

    As soon as his knee touches the floor it's a tackle and the standing player (tackle with no tackler situation) has to release.

    If he rips the ball before the knee, play on.
    If he rips the ball after the knee, Penalty.

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    Default Re: Tackle holding on a ball

    Think you have to assume that ball carrier and ball are 'one' in this scenario, so blue is holding the red player + ball combo, as soon as this combo gets a knee we have 'ball carrier held on the ground' so a tackle, blue must release (then red).

    However, timing is key, and in reality if blue rip that ball in the same moment as red touches the ground it's probably a successful rip and play on. Massively helped if you can manage it with a call of 'tackle release', although in my experience that's the exact moment the ball rips clear and it becomes a penalty cos you've called it!

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    Default Re: Tackle holding on a ball

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    As soon as his knee touches the floor it's a tackle and the standing player (tackle with no tackler situation) has to release.

    If he rips the ball before the knee, play on.
    If he rips the ball after the knee, Penalty.
    An eminently pragmatic approach, though that does not mean it is easy to apply.
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    Default Re: Tackle holding on a ball

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    An eminently pragmatic approach, though that does not mean it is easy to apply.
    Timing and communication are everything

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    Default Re: Tackle holding on a ball

    we had a similar thread very recently I seem top recall?

    The consensus there seemed to be rip on ball only, BC knee to ground = "tackle" and played as such ie rip must release the ball.

    didds

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    Default Re: Tackle holding on a ball

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    we had a similar thread very recently I seem top recall?

    The consensus there seemed to be rip on ball only, BC knee to ground = "tackle" and played as such ie rip must release the ball.

    didds
    Yep. I knew it.
    http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread....-have-released

    The majority might have consensus of penalizing a ripper but a bit of debate was there. Anyway, the situation of clear ripping intent and gripping "only" on a ball might be a bit new here to go to a further edge case. This happens a lot in Mini rugby I am coaching BTW.

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