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Thread: Shirt Pulling

      
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    Default Shirt Pulling

    How should this be refereed?

    In the professional game ?
    In the grass roots game ?

    https://twitter.com/CharlieFelix/sta...896574976?s=19

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    Referees in England
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    Default Re: Shirt Pulling

    The first player whose shirt he pulls falls over, which I think could legitimately be considered collapsing a ruck.

    If we ignore that one for the purposes of the thought experiment, I’m not sure the second one is illegal. Very annoying, sure, but I can’t think of a law it contravenes.

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    Default Re: Shirt Pulling

    Just realised there’s a third and fourth tug as well. Those would seem to be playing the man without the ball.

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    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

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    Default Re: Shirt Pulling

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    How should this be refereed?

    In the professional game ?
    In the grass roots game ?

    https://twitter.com/CharlieFelix/sta...896574976?s=19
    For case 1, pulling someone forward off feet over a ruck, I'd give a warning first time, then penalise for collapsing the ruck. Mostly as management, it can be a niggle that grows into a flashpoint if someone's face gets driven into the ground.

    The second blue player nothing happens, the third blue player is unbound and offside so tell him to bind or get back.

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    Rugby Club Member Flish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Shirt Pulling

    Firstly, we allow players to push a player out of a ruck, and we allow them to roll them sideways out of a ruck, so why can they not pull them forwards out of a ruck? If its not collapsing a ruck in the other scenarios then why here? (Caveat I have pinged collapsing a ruck before but it's when multiple players bound in that are collapsed).

    So first one probably ok, after that he never really binds to the player over the ball, but is in contact so borderline (especially at elite level), but then he releases and starts playing the player behind the ruck so he needs to rebind to the player over the ball, I think I would PK at this point as crossed the line

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    Default Re: Shirt Pulling

    I suspect because referees are trying not to blow the whistle.
    All of those are illegal - but we do need to get a game going at some point.
    If it does not prevent the ball coming out and is not dangerous, referees do seem to want continuity.

    Of course, it is problematical if you do need to blow as then you have offences you have let go - and they may be the first offence.
    Similar to my other bugbear of letting props bind and twist illegally and then penalising their opponent for collapsing.

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    Default Re: Shirt Pulling

    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo View Post
    Just realised there’s a third and fourth tug as well. Those would seem to be playing the man without the ball.
    that's thin ground though. If he PUSHED that player that would be a totally legal/acceptable action at a ruck. So pulling versus pushing. Hmm.


    didds

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    Rugby Club Member Treadmore's Avatar

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    Default Re: Shirt Pulling

    Quote Originally Posted by Pablo View Post
    The first player whose shirt he pulls falls over, which I think could legitimately be considered collapsing a ruck.
    The first blue player puts his hands on ground even before Itoje pulls him: not an uncommon event that goes unpenalised but surely the first infringement.

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    Rugby Club Member Treadmore's Avatar

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    Default Re: Shirt Pulling

    Quote Originally Posted by Flish View Post
    So first one probably ok, after that he never really binds to the player over the ball, but is in contact so borderline (especially at elite level), but then he releases and starts playing the player behind the ruck so he needs to rebind to the player over the ball, I think I would PK at this point as crossed the line
    with the second blue player, there is contact, and Blue is probably sufficiently on his feet, though hands are on the team mate on the ground. So let's say it is a ruck...the third Blue player is called in by Blue 9 to join the ruck and thus extend the offside line in time honoured fashion (and they do move the ball backwards, just so). However, the 3rd Blue player never really binds just places a hand on his team mate.

    Again we see that a lot and everyone seems to pretend the player has joined the ruck and so changed the offside line. So what's a Red player to do? I suspect if any Red player had gone around to get the ball once it had been moved backwards beyond the 2nd Blue player they would have been penalised because the 3rd Blue player would have been judged to be in the ruck!

    Itoje, maintains contact with the 2nd Blue player and grabs the 3rd Blue player (and 4th) once he puts his hands on his team mate. I think Itoje is just playing the situation as it is often refereed - the 3rd blue player was in the ruck.

    From then on, pulling versus pushing in a ruck? Nothing to penalise, surely?

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    Default Re: Shirt Pulling

    So, if I reach over and pull an opponent toward me, exposing the ball he was protecting, is the ball out, and can my team mates go round and get it?

    Must be right

    We should see that as a tactic more often ..

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