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Thread: Is this a forward pass?

      
  1. #31
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    Default Re: Is this a forward pass?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    What if the player nearer to the opposition goal line rips the ball off his teammate, instead of his teammate handing it to him?

    How do you tell the difference?
    Is the player who rips the ball, in front when he starts the ripping process. If so, he's offside. If he's onside we've got a joint possession situation again.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Is this a forward pass?

    I thought I'd get a variety of answers here.
    ..and as Dickie points out, this really is Pinhead territory.
    ..and as Arabcheif points out there is little in the law book to cover joint possession of the ball.


    My personal guidlines here (because I've had this happen more than once):


    Was BC2 behind BC1 when he/she got a grip on the ball (*1);
    Was there any clear & obvious movement forward (*2);
    When did the 'you have control' moment take place (*3);




    *1 I've had a maul (Womens game) where BC2 was diagonally in front of BC1 when she managed to get a real grip on the ball. To me that was a C&O forward movement and I blew for a forward pass (FP).


    *2 If BC2 gets in front and BC1 extends his arms forwards to let go of the ball then there is a 'passing movement' and I blow.


    *3 If BC1 had control when BC2 was already ahead of them then it is a FP and I blow (this includes BC2 getting in front without real control and then ripping the ball off his teammate).
    If BC2 had control when they were still behind BC1 then it is not a FP and we play on.
    If control is shared while BC2 is behind BC1 then we are in the grey zone.


    If we are in the grey zone (as Arabcheif says - joint possession) then we have to take account of loads of other things {is BC1 'swimming' backwards with the ball; is BC2 fringing around a stationary maul; is the maul naturally rotating about its centre point or is BC2 spinning it via a 'peeling' motion; is there something else that looks 'wrong'}.


    No-one said our job was always easy.

  3. #33

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    Default Re: Is this a forward pass?

    I don't think it's pinhead territory at all

    We have a ball carrier transferring possession of the ball to a team mate in front of him

    Peep .. scrum

    If you really object to calling it a forward pass call it accidental offside (ball carrier coming into contact with team mate in front) . It's still peep scrum

    I just can't see this as an edge case at all, seem straightforward

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Is this a forward pass?

    Surely for handing the ball it has to be C&O there is a forward pass for you to blow.

    If the ball carrier initiall passes backwards, but is spun round before they completely disengage, then that is an excuse not to plow the whistle.

    The standard mantra is the fewer times you need to blow the better.

  5. #35

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    Default Re: Is this a forward pass?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camquin View Post
    Surely for handing the ball it has to be C&O there is a forward pass for you to blow.

    If the ball carrier initiall passes backwards, but is spun round before they completely disengage, then that is an excuse not to plow the whistle.

    The standard mantra is the fewer times you need to blow the better.
    we always blow for a forward pass or a knock on

    If it's not clear that BC2 is in front of BC1 , fair enough play on
    In the OP the players rotate a full 180 which I take to maean BC2 is directly in front of BC1 when he relasease the ball to him.. ie C&O in front of him

  6. #36

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    Default Re: Is this a forward pass?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    I don't think it's pinhead territory at all

    We have a ball carrier transferring possession of the ball to a team mate in front of him

    Peep .. scrum

    If you really object to calling it a forward pass call it accidental offside (ball carrier coming into contact with team mate in front) . It's still peep scrum

    I just can't see this as an edge case at all, seem straightforward
    You are using your own definition of "transferring possession", which is not listed in the laws. Therefore you cannot see the problem.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  7. #37

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    Default Re: Is this a forward pass?

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    You are using your own definition of "transferring possession", which is not listed in the laws. Therefore you cannot see the problem.
    Ok

    I don't think it's pinhead territory at all

    We have a ball carrier handing the ball to a team mate in front of him

    Peep .. scrum

    If you really object to calling it a forward pass call it accidental offside (ball carrier coming into contact with team mate in front) . It's still peep scrum

    I just can't see this as an edge case at all, seem straightforward


    You are using your own definition of "handing" (it's not handing if it's done slowly) that's why you don't see the issue

  8. #38

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    Default Re: Is this a forward pass?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Ok

    I don't think it's pinhead territory at all

    We have a ball carrier handing the ball to a team mate in front of him

    Peep .. scrum

    If you really object to calling it a forward pass call it accidental offside (ball carrier coming into contact with team mate in front) . It's still peep scrum

    I just can't see this as an edge case at all, seem straightforward


    You are using your own definition of "handing" (it's not handing if it's done slowly) that's why you don't see the issue
    I can see the issue very clearly: the law is not specific on this particular case.

    My own view is clear - I would not whistle for it. However If I was watching a referee who did, I would not penalise him for it. If he managed to sell it to the players, so much the better. We would discuss it as an academic problem, no more. Similarly if he said "play on", I would discuss the issue in case he came across someone of a different mindset. In practice I cannot recall the problem ever arising.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Is this a forward pass?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Ok

    I don't think it's pinhead territory at all

    We have a ball carrier handing the ball to a team mate in front of him

    Peep .. scrum

    If you really object to calling it a forward pass call it accidental offside (ball carrier coming into contact with team mate in front) . It's still peep scrum

    I just can't see this as an edge case at all, seem straightforward


    You are using your own definition of "handing" (it's not handing if it's done slowly) that's why you don't see the issue
    In the bold writing. No this isn't what were having here. I refer back to the OP...

    The ball carrier (let’s call him BC1) is held up in an attempted tackle and he turns towards his own goal line;
    One of his team mates (let’s call him BC2) comes in from behind him and also gets hold of the ball (so we now have BC1 & BC2 with their hands firmly on the ball);
    The three players end up slowly rotating 180 degrees;

    So the BC 2 has possession before he gets in front. So Forward pass can't be this as BC 2 is behind BC 1. Offside - Nope because he's in possession of the ball.

  10. #40

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    Default Re: Is this a forward pass?

    I think you an OB are being legalistic
    At the end of the day he give the ball to someone in front of him

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