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Thread: retaken conversion

      
  1. #31

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    Default Re: retaken conversion

    in our brave new world, mental impairment is as real as physical impairment.

    What if the first kicker was so distraught at missing the first kick that he couldn't take the second?

    Just having a bit of fun here, no responses needed.

    Not really joking ... do you think this could become a thing?

    Maybe clubs will have a sideline head shrinker who will recognise the signs of anxiety and take players off for a different type of HIA
    Last edited by Dickie E; 24-06-19 at 01:06.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  2. #32

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    Default Re: retaken conversion

    In any instance where there is a gap in the law, and I believe that there is here, my natural inclination would be to err on the side of the non-offending team.

    As has been cited, where TPTB want the same player to do something (mark, kick) they have no trouble saying so. I equally hold to the OB view that parsing the laws like a pedantic lawyer serves you no good as a referee.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
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    Man may do as he will; he may not will what he wills
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    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: retaken conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    Yes I would. I was merely raising the point that if you allow a change of kicker for an injury then why not for any reason. If it is universally accepted, in law or without law, that you would accept a change of kicker through injury then allow it anyway because if I was a coach I would merely ask my first kicker to feign injury so it could happen.
    Remember the old days where Doctors had to say that a player was injured and could be replaced. Every team had a doc who would "comply" with the desire of the team. As you rightly say this would happen here.

    Simple ploy:

    Player suddenly needs treatment. He gets treatment without being subbed /replaced. He goes to the side of the pitch and is "treated" whilst the replacement kicker takes over. The kick is completed and player's "treatment is now completed and he is able to return. Who'd
    have thought it.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: retaken conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    in our brave new world, mental impairment is as real as physical impairment.

    What if the first kicker was so distraught at missing the first kick that he couldn't take the second?

    Just having a bit of fun here, no responses needed.

    Not really joking ... do you think this could become a thing?

    Maybe clubs will have a sideline head shrinker who will recognise the signs of anxiety and take players off for a different type of HIA.
    Football world cup back in the 1990s. Gazza has lost it and is in tears. Gary Linaker looks to the bench and indictes to the manager that Gazza needs to be replaced because his "head is gone".

    Rugby situation where referee "suggests" Captain your six is losing his discipline. I suggest you think about subbing him before i have to give him 10 minutes to calm down!

    Two situation where judgement have been made bassed on a player's "state of mind"

    So, yours is not such a daft idea.

  5. #35

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    Default Re: retaken conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    thanks both. Any thoughts on my question #2?

    I wouldn't want to favour the squeaky wheel but I'm also mindful that Red are now blaming the ref for the outcome.
    I agree with Ian_Cook about the law, it's neither pro or contra, open to interpretation so no mistake on your part in my opinion.

    As for your second question: you were absolutely correct to allow the conversion to be retaken. I would hazard a guess that Red weren't vocal at any previous conversion attempts but with their win down to this final kick, they would seem to have tried to pull a fast one on their opponents. Well spotted.

  6. #36

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    Default Re: retaken conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    I haven't analysed the grammar and nuance !! It's just the plain meaning of the sentence.

    So - I'd apply the Laws as written - the kicker must retake the kick

    if something unusual happened that wasn't covered by Law I'd have to make a judgement about the equitable way to proceed - that's what we do
    With respect, and now we have an Englishman, a New Zealander and and Irishman in this non-joke, it's not at all plain language. I can see both sides of the argument, so that has to tell you it's not so cut and dried.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: retaken conversion

    Off on a slight tangent.


    7s on Saturday.

    Blue team goes into a small lead (1 point) with the conversion to come. We are very close to time.


    Kicker: " Will there be a restart?"
    Me: "Depends whether you kick the ball before or after time is up."
    Kicker: "How long do I have until that happens?"
    Mw: "If you delay unduly you might find that there is a second left when you kick it!" (Said with a knowing look).

    He got the message.

    We don't want "gamesmanship" deciding matches. I was not going to let him run the clock down. His normal preperation ? Fine. A tad longer on this one? Who'd notice? Taking the piss? No way!

    Same with the OP. Big pressure on the kicker and the side CHEATING try to gain by ramping up the pressure (unfairly) on him. I'd have no problem with changing the kicker.

  8. #38

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    Default Re: retaken conversion

    So to make sure I understand, if you felt he was guilty of "gamesmanship" you would restart the game, even though your watch told you time had expired?

  9. #39

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    Default Re: retaken conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    In any instance where there is a gap in the law, and I believe that there is here, my natural inclination would be to err on the side of the non-offending team.

    As has been cited, where TPTB want the same player to do something (mark, kick) they have no trouble saying so. I equally hold to the OB view that parsing the laws like a pedantic lawyer serves you no good as a referee.
    Full agreement. And by analogy with the law governing the mark:

    Law 17:
    5. The player who claimed the mark takes the free-kick (in accordance with Law 20).
    6. If the player is unable to take the free-kick within one minute, a scrum is awarded to the team in possession.


    An equivalent on a retaken conversion is conspicuous by its absence. If the lawmakers had wanted us to insist a retaken conversion should be taken by the original kicker, they could have made it as plain as they did with the mark.
    If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you... you must be a rugby referee!

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the universe..." - Albert Einstein

  10. #40

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    Default Re: retaken conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    Off on a slight tangent.


    7s on Saturday.

    Blue team goes into a small lead (1 point) with the conversion to come. We are very close to time.


    Kicker: " Will there be a restart?"
    Me: "Depends whether you kick the ball before or after time is up."
    Kicker: "How long do I have until that happens?"
    Mw: "If you delay unduly you might find that there is a second left when you kick it!" (Said with a knowing look).

    He got the message.

    We don't want "gamesmanship" deciding matches. I was not going to let him run the clock down. His normal preperation ? Fine. A tad longer on this one? Who'd notice? Taking the piss? No way!

    Same with the OP. Big pressure on the kicker and the side CHEATING try to gain by ramping up the pressure (unfairly) on him. I'd have no problem with changing the kicker.
    We're drifting off topic (how unusual!) here, but I would advise a better way of managing those questions is simply to tell the player how long you have left on your watch. It's then up to them to know the law well enough about time allowances to decide their course of action.
    If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you... you must be a rugby referee!

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the universe..." - Albert Einstein

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