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Thread: "Knock-on"

      
  1. #31

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    Default Re: "Knock-on"

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    If the ball hits them on the head, its obvious to everyone that it did so. So its not a knock on.

    If the ball hits them on the chest while their arms are spread wide away from their body, then its obvious its not a knock on.

    If their arms are in a catching position and the ball goes straight through their arms, then its almost impossible to say it did, or didn't touch the hands or arms. I am going to give the knock on, because that's what everyone is expecting and it was essentially a dropped catch.

    You can argue about the angle the ball fell at, or whether it actually touched their skin or not for as long as you like, but everyone is expecting a knock on call and that's what we go for...the clear and obvious.
    I get that. As somebody else stated however, this is a complete reverse of the C&O approach to making decisions. Intriguing.

    didds

  2. #32

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    Default Re: "Knock-on"

    This is very similar to the first thread I contributed to in 2008. I think the scenario was different insofar as the intended recipient "misses" the ball with his/her hands, ball hits his/her gut goes forward and he/she falls on it and scores.

    I said I was giving a knock on even if I wasn't sure the ball hadn't hit a hand on the way in or out. There were some who questioned this just like now but others who were in the "expected" decision camp.

    My opinion hasn't changed in 11.5 years.
    Along came Lou with old baboon and said I recognise that smell. That smells like seven layers. That beaver eats Taco Bell....- Claypool, LaLonde & Alexander 1995

  3. #33

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    Default Re: "Knock-on"

    would your response be the same if it happened on half way and there was no try to be scored ?

    (I suspect so and that's fine :-)

    didds

  4. #34
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: "Knock-on"

    From Definitions:
    Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player
    hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes
    forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can
    catch it.

    Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it
    under control.

    I think it's fair to assume that the lawmakers consider possession to be by hand or arm. Therefore the ball going forward from lost possession is assumed to be a ball going forward from hand or arm.

    Yes, a player attempting to catch a kick is attempting to take control but if the ball bounces forward off his head then it is clearly not coming off hand or arm. Therefore not a knock-on.

  5. #35

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    Default Re: "Knock-on"

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    From Definitions:
    Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player
    hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes
    forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can
    catch it.

    Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it
    under control.

    I think it's fair to assume that the lawmakers consider possession to be by hand or arm. Therefore the ball going forward from lost possession is assumed to be a ball going forward from hand or arm.

    Yes, a player attempting to catch a kick is attempting to take control but if the ball bounces forward off his head then it is clearly not coming off hand or arm. Therefore not a knock-on.
    ditto his guts of course...

    didds

  6. #36
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: "Knock-on"

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    I get that. As somebody else stated however, this is a complete reverse of the C&O approach to making decisions. Intriguing.

    didds
    I think that it's fair to assume that, unless C & O otherwise, the player is attempting to play the ball with hand or arm. Therefore the default is a knock-on.

    That's different from the issue of the ball going forward or not. I see too many calls of knock-on when the ball does not clearly go forward.

  7. #37

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    Default Re: "Knock-on"

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    I get that. As somebody else stated however, this is a complete reverse of the C&O approach to making decisions. Intriguing.

    didds
    C&O is used in the direction to suit the occasion ! :-)

  8. #38

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    Default Re: "Knock-on"

    This is one of those scenarios where the best answer is not to be found by examining the Law book . The best decision is is along the lines of #9 or #30

  9. #39

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    Default Re: "Knock-on"

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    If their arms are in a catching position and the ball goes straight through their arms, then its almost impossible to say it did, or didn't touch the hands or arms. I am going to give the knock on, because that's what everyone is expecting and it was essentially a dropped catch.
    At our club's 50th Anniversary dinner the main speakers were Gareth Chilcott and Tony Swift. Both very entertaining.

    TS was at pains to make it clear that his first touch in an international was NOT a knock-on. Apparently he shaped to catch the ball, missed it completely, so it bounced on the ground, came back up, hit him in the balls and went forward. We laughed unsympathetically.

    (GC claimed that Topsy Ojo was qualified to play for Wales because his grandfather ate a Welsh dragoon.)
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  10. #40
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    Default Re: "Knock-on"

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    To give a bit more context. I was playing standing right next to the ref at the LO. He played knock on advantage, they kick the ball - advantage over then it went out of play. I mentioned that it came off 10's stomach any so it wasn't a knock on in that circumstance. (I don't think he knows I'm a ref but if he's at our soc meeting tonight he will lol).

    He told me that it was irrelevant that it was off his stomach and advised that a knock on was anywhere between the shins and shoulder This implies that he's aware the ball didn't touch the 10's hands. I replied this isn't what's described in the definitions but said it didn't matter ATM, we can chat on Monday (at the soc meeting). He told me to "shut-it."

    That's not went down well. I'll def not be shutting it this evening.
    During the game "Shut it" is exactly whay you should do! - Although he could frame his words carefully. Ref makes the call - NOT YOU! You are a player (in this situation) accept it mnd move on. Nothing worse than a ref playing the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    1. I'm sure he'd say I was a gobby tw*t. The impression I got was that he was aware the ball didn't touch the 10's hands and was telling me that it didn't matter, as it was a knock on anyway.
    2. Fair enough but it still doesn't make me wrong.
    3. I've never seen a ref keep his opinions to himself when playing (or even watching). That must mean I've never seen a good ref lol (btf, this might be true and I might not even be a good ref but I'll be consistently good or bad for both teams).
    1: You were! Remember Law 6.5.A
    2: It does for the 80 minutes! Remember Law 6.5.A
    3: Irrelevant. Remember Law 6.5.A

    AFTER the game discuss politely. In the Society meeting engineer a question so that a senior guy "corrects" him if he was wrong

    Oh and as a reminder whe you are playing and NOT reffing and if you can't remember check whick on of you is holding the whistle, Remember Law 6.5.A.
    Last edited by Marc Wakeham; 03-09-19 at 17:09.

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