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Thread: Maul Law 16.8 & 16.9

      
  1. #11
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    Default Re: Maul Law 16.8 & 16.9

    Your not penalising anyone. Blue do not need to allow red to make the ball available - it is a contest after all.

    If you thought they collapsed the scrum then you have a sanction against Blue. If you don't then Blue are allowed to prevent the ball comming back on the red side.

    Blue are not required t oroll way - It is not a tackle after all. Good defence by Blue. Why not reward that?

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    Default Re: Maul Law 16.8 & 16.9

    I'm reading the OP like this:
    Red ball carrier goes to ground and presents ball to SH. As the SH is about to pick up ball, 2 Blue players flop over and kill the ball (ie Blue didn't go to ground as part of Red going to ground). If so, penalty Red.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Maul Law 16.8 & 16.9

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    I'm reading the OP like this:
    Red ball carrier goes to ground and presents ball to SH. As the SH is about to pick up ball, 2 Blue players flop over and kill the ball (ie Blue didn't go to ground as part of Red going to ground). If so, penalty Red.
    Yes that’s how it looked, thanks for being much more succinct and clear than I was. I considered the PK against blue but thought that was possibly excessive, especially as I wasn’t sure that the right response wasn’t in fact a scrum to blue. The scrum to red was a sort of cowards way out in an attempt to split the difference in my ignorance!

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    Default Re: Maul Law 16.8 & 16.9

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    Your not penalising anyone. Blue do not need to allow red to make the ball available - it is a contest after all.

    If you thought they collapsed the scrum then you have a sanction against Blue. If you don't then Blue are allowed to prevent the ball comming back on the red side.

    Blue are not required t oroll way - It is not a tackle after all. Good defence by Blue. Why not reward that?
    so if the instruction to endeavour to stay on your feet has no force in law, in the sense that there is no sanction against ignoring it completely, why is it in the laws?

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    Default Re: Maul Law 16.8 & 16.9

    Quote Originally Posted by GuildfordRef View Post
    so if the instruction to endeavour to stay on your feet has no force in law, in the sense that there is no sanction against ignoring it completely, why is it in the laws?
    it's there to stop non-ball carriers from instigating the going to ground. And to stop non-ball carriers flopping over the ball to kill it.

    One other thing to keep an eye for. Once it becomes apparent to players that the maul may be held up & become unplayable, they may have a propensity to join the maul from any direction to help/hinder in the holding up. This is not legal.
    Last edited by Dickie E; 4 Weeks Ago at 00:09.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Maul Law 16.8 & 16.9

    Quote Originally Posted by GuildfordRef View Post
    Yes that’s how it looked, thanks for being much more succinct and clear than I was. I considered the PK against blue but thought that was possibly excessive, especially as I wasn’t sure that the right response wasn’t in fact a scrum to blue. The scrum to red was a sort of cowards way out in an attempt to split the difference in my ignorance!
    Yeah, the only way its a scrum is if Blue had the Red ball carrier wrapped up before they went to ground. In this situation, they do not need to release her once they're on the deck. But other Blue players can't pile on to kill the ball.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Maul Law 16.8 & 16.9

    But those in the maul can prevent it coming out. Others can't "join" the unsuccessful maul to do the same.
    Last edited by Marc Wakeham; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:09.

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    Default Re: Maul Law 16.8 & 16.9

    For me, the OP has three possible outcomes.

    1 a PK against Blue if you think they have deliberately collapsed the maul (16.11) or player have dived on to the maul to kill it (16.7c).

    2 a scrum to blue for an unsuccessful end to the maul (subject to the caveats about mauls from certain kicks). (16.17 a/b/d then 19.1 matrix)

    3 a scrum for an unsuccessful maul where you not sure who collapsed the maul (16.17 a/b/d then 19.1 matrix { final point stoppage for any other reason})

    Here you tell us that either:

    A) red ball carrier took the ball (and the maul went with him) to ground and the ball was unplayable. If so it is 2.

    or
    B) red Ball carrier took the ball to ground and Blue Illegally prevented the ball coming back in which case it is a PK to red. The OP rules out "unclear what happened" so 3 is not relevant. If yo uuse it to justify a scrum to red then it is a cop out as you describe it.

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    Default Re: Maul Law 16.8 & 16.9

    Quote Originally Posted by GuildfordRef View Post
    so if the instruction to endeavour to stay on your feet has no force in law, in the sense that there is no sanction against ignoring it completely, why is it in the laws?
    The critical word here is "Endeavor" that word does not mean "MUST". Rather it means "try hard to do or achieve something."

  10. #20

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    Default Re: Maul Law 16.8 & 16.9

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    But those in the maul can prevent it coming out. Others can't "join" the unsuccessful maul to do the same.
    No. If a non-ball carrier has the ball carrier wrapped up in the maul then she doesn't have to release when it goes to ground. However, other mauling players who don't have contact with the ball carrier can't then play the ball once its on the ground. The key point is nobody can prevent it coming out but by the same token they don't have to release & roll.
    Last edited by Dickie E; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:09.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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