Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Wales v Georgia Gareth Davies deliverate knock-on or not

      
  1. #1
    Slowing down these days

    Soc/Assoc
    London Society
    Grade
    Level 8
    Join Date
    21 Jan 09
    Posts
    413
    Thanks (Received)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    48

    Default Wales v Georgia Gareth Davies deliverate knock-on or not

    Hope you can see this video link ( Upon feedback I can alter )
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D48...il&ts=5d88abec

    Georgia break the line and , initially, it looks like Gareth Davies sticks out a hand (no attempt to catch) and prevents the pass. Commentators are immediately saying "This could be a yellow card".
    Luke Pearce then , after seeing the video reply, decides that , because the ball has traveled backwards, it cannot be a knock-on. Lucky for Gareth Davies as it was a very risky thing to do.

    In a game at my level ,I would have probably have given this as a knock-on and a YC.

    My issue is the inconsistency of this interpretation with the forward pass law. In the above case, the ball goes backwards relative to the goal-lines but given Davies' momentum, it goes forward relative to Davies' hands.

    When we judge a forward-pass, we are told to evaluate relative to the passer's hands and not consider the relative to the goal-lines motion. The player's momentum is considered and taken into account. Quite right too !

    In this knock-on decision, it looks like the referee has NOT considered the relative-motion-to-the-hands reasoning.

    Agree?
    Last edited by CrouchTPEngage; 23-09-19 at 12:09.

  2. #2

    Referees in England
    Pablo's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Buckinghamshire Referees Society
    Grade
    6
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    1,353
    Thanks (Received)
    7
    Likes (Received)
    66

    Default Re: Wales v Georgia Gareth Davies deliverate knock-on or not

    I think LP made the right call, and much credit to him for admitting a mistake and moving on.

    In this instance:
    • the ball went backwards
    • Gareth Davies was also travelling backwards
    • GD's hand was moving down, more than forward relative to him


    All those factors combine to make a "knock-on" a very tough call to sell. We all talk about "making the expected call", and once the TMO had got involved with slow-mo, yellow carding GD for a ball that went towards his own DBL was never going to happen.

    Do instances like this make the momentum interpretation inconsistent? Maybe, but I can't see it being problematic in most circumstances.
    If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you... you must be a rugby referee!

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the universe..." - Albert Einstein

  3. #3
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    Cardiff Society of Welsh Rugby Union Referees
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    05 Jan 18
    Posts
    1,669
    Thanks (Received)
    23
    Likes (Received)
    389

    Default Re: Wales v Georgia Gareth Davies deliverate knock-on or not

    The call was spot on. Well done Luke. I think he had a very good game. HOWEVER, he allowed Wales to blatently feed the back row at scrum time. Shocking!

  4. #4
    Rugby Club Member Flish's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Durham
    Grade
    Level 9
    Join Date
    02 Sep 13
    Posts
    932
    Thanks (Received)
    20
    Likes (Received)
    227

    Default Re: Wales v Georgia Gareth Davies deliverate knock-on or not

    Freely admit at first glance I thought it was a KO that he had no real chance of catching and was in trouble, and mayhap he's been lucky, but right call in the end. Thought that Luke and the team did well, the challenge in the air, a try that could have been referred but wasn't, etc

  5. #5

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    17,990
    Thanks (Received)
    147
    Likes (Received)
    1819

    Default Re: Wales v Georgia Gareth Davies deliverate knock-on or not

    In real time that's a knock on and a YC

    Once the TMO is involved then we are Hawk Eye..

    It went backward over the ground, but on the other hand he increased the forward velocity (reduced the backward velocity)

    That is the scenario that I argued with OB.. about a while ago

    By the momentum view it's a knock on .. but
    Last edited by crossref; 23-09-19 at 13:09.

  6. #6
    Slowing down these days

    Soc/Assoc
    London Society
    Grade
    Level 8
    Join Date
    21 Jan 09
    Posts
    413
    Thanks (Received)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    48

    Default Re: Wales v Georgia Gareth Davies deliverate knock-on or not

    Yep. Fairly risky and reckless thing to do. He could have easily been yellow-carded doing that next time.
    Like I said, in my level, I dont get TMO replays, so I would probably have given it a knock-on and I would be surprised if anyone complained.
    Interesting point - on momentum. Needs a law clarification maybe ?

  7. #7

    Advises in England
    OB..'s Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Glos & District
    Grade
    Adviser (grass roots)
    Join Date
    07 Oct 04
    Posts
    22,602
    Thanks (Received)
    118
    Likes (Received)
    1593

    Default Re: Wales v Georgia Gareth Davies deliverate knock-on or not

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    In real time that's a knock on and a YC

    Once the TMO is involved then we are Hawk Eye..

    It went backward over the ground, but on the other hand he increased the forward velocity (reduced the backward velocity)

    That is the scenario that I argued with OB.. about a while ago

    By the momentum view it's a knock on .. but
    To be fair to Luke, his first question was "Did it go forward?" Even without the TMO he might have decided it was not C&O.

    With a pass, the ball initially has the same forward speed as the player. With an attempted interception it doesn't.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  8. #8

    Referees in England
    ctrainor's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Cumbria Referees Society
    Grade
    7
    Join Date
    23 Jun 05
    Posts
    2,390
    Thanks (Received)
    10
    Likes (Received)
    183

    Default Re: Wales v Georgia Gareth Davies deliverate knock-on or not

    The very next phase Davies fluffs an intercept but looked a mile offside!
    Ciaran Trainor

  9. #9
    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Rugby Nederland
    Grade
    WR level 2
    Join Date
    13 Apr 15
    Posts
    1,235
    Thanks (Received)
    19
    Likes (Received)
    338

    Default Re: Wales v Georgia Gareth Davies deliverate knock-on or not

    I agree, forward passes are judged using momentum and knock-ons are judged relative to the ground.

    It's what's in the law book (which was rewritten to clarify the momentum matter for forward passes), it's apparently what top tier refs use, it's what I was taught, so it's what I use too. I wasn't aware that it was a point of discussion!

    However, this instance in real time is far from C&O, and I may well have erroneously called the knock-on. And probably had little complaint.

  10. #10
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    Cardiff Society of Welsh Rugby Union Referees
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    05 Jan 18
    Posts
    1,669
    Thanks (Received)
    23
    Likes (Received)
    389

    Default Re: Wales v Georgia Gareth Davies deliverate knock-on or not

    More of a problem with Davies is his dummying at the base and his ignoring refs when told to "use it". Yet the referees let him get away with it. Let's not mention his feeding of the NO 8 at the scrums.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •