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Thread: USA/ARG - Offside from kick

      
  1. #11
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    Default Re: USA/ARG - Offside from kick

    Those of us in the UK (or have UK VPN) can see it on the ITV HUB. If it's the same incident, it's 1:35 ish into the game.

    So the Arg player jumps to charge down the kick. It goes up and behind him. Seem to be Law 10.7.b.iv Intentionally touches the ball without gaining possession of it. The video attached to this(on World Rugby website) is Sco v Sam. Sco have a ruck, ball is passed back to Sco No 10 (Can't see if it's Russell or someone else), he kicks - Sam No 19 jumps to charge down, comes off his fingertips, ref plays on. Seem to be exactly what happen here.

    Looks like ref blew up before USA player got the ball (after the kick) and he decided there was no advantage??

  2. #12
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    Default Re: USA/ARG - Offside from kick

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    It would be good if the clarification form the lawmakers made any sense in law?

    Clarification of the designated members of the Rugby Committee
    1. The act of a charge down is one where an opposition player not in possession of the ball approaches a kicker at close quarters and makes an attempt to block the kick. In such circumstances players in front of the kicker who are within 10 metres of the kick are not liable to penalty wherever the ball lands.
    2. If the ball is not charged down but is played or touches an opposition player and a player from the kicker’s side is within the 10 metre area in front of the kick that player is liable to penalty in accordance with Law 11.4(f).

    The deletion of 11.4(f) would require a Law amendment.


    What has being within 10m of the kick got to do with it if the ball lands 50m down the pitch?

    NB 11.4 is/was the offside under 10m law
    The English language is a very dangerous tool and open to many interpretations! Could readily sweep up the point where the ball lands as being within the meaning of kick. But a clarification in the territory of some of their finest!
    Last edited by ChuckieB; 1 Week Ago at 17:10.

  3. #13

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    Default Re: USA/ARG - Offside from kick

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckieB View Post
    So yes, the ref basically messed up under the correct application of the 10m law.

    law clarification from all the way back in 2011

    https://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=...arification=81
    Seems to me he got it right under the 10m law ?

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    Default Re: USA/ARG - Offside from kick

    Missed the detail in the OP

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    Default Re: USA/ARG - Offside from kick

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Seems to me he got it right under the 10m law ?
    From what the OP said, yes. (The OP said he touched it intentionally but no a charge-down.)
    Having just watched it on my good old PVR it looks to me as if it was actually a charge-down attempt - so I think the ref got it wrong.
    I've freeze framed the replay below, apologies again for the poor quality, I've added some annotations to help clarify.
    The Arg player is jumping with both hands up in the air, in front of the kicker, and got a hand or two to it - if that's not a charge-down then what is it?!?
    Arg v USA Annotated.jpg

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    Default Re: USA/ARG - Offside from kick

    So that's the old chestnut .. what actually is a charge down

    The only definition of it is in 11.3.a which says it's only a charge down if it goes forward off the player.

    So it wasn't a charge down

    But perhaps that isn't a good definition


    Another definition is a touch immediately after a kick. Under that definition it is a charge down

    We badly need a definition of a charge down

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    Default Re: USA/ARG - Offside from kick

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    The only definition of it is in 11.3.a which says it's only a charge down if it goes forward off the player.
    I didn't realise it was an old chestnut!

    What about this, from the rule clarification posted by ChuckieB?

    2. The definition of “Charge Down” in Law 12 clearly indicates that the ball does NOT have to travel forward from the player charging down to be considered a charge down (stating that charge down “is not a knock-on even though the ball may go forward”).

    https://laws.worldrugby.org/index.ph...81&language=EN

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    Default Re: USA/ARG - Offside from kick

    From 2011.. so is it still valid ?

    But I do like this approach , and if this one is still valid then the 10m Law does not apply and the referee got it wrong !

    On the other hand the clarification clearly doesn't understand the 10m Law at all (as pointed out above) so perhaps it is not valid

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    Default Re: USA/ARG - Offside from kick

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    From 2011.. so is it still valid ?
    No idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    But I do like this approach , and if this one is still valid then the 10m Law does not apply and the referee got it wrong !
    Me too, and yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    On the other hand the clarification clearly doesn't understand the 10m Law at all (as pointed out above) so perhaps it is not valid
    Why, because they wrote "who are within 10 metres of the kick" rather than "who are within 10 metres of [where] the kick [landed]"?

    I think from the context (they get it right in the very next para) that's just them being rubbish at wording things, rather than not understanding the law. Typical WR!
    Last edited by belladonna; 6 Days Ago at 00:10.

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    Default Re: USA/ARG - Offside from kick

    No both paras are wrong.. it does seem like the author misunderstood the 10m Law

    The 2018 rewrite reinforced the notion that charge down must go forward.

    I wonder what WR think now .

    The key question is to know what, in this context

    This is known as the 10-metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not when the kick is charged down.


    What is the difference between just paying it, and charging it down
    Last edited by crossref; 6 Days Ago at 07:10.

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