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Thread: Guirado's disallowed try

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: Guirado's disallowed try

    My decision point is: did they get the same outcome as if they'd won the scrum.

    2 or 3 passes under no pressure => advantage over.

    Wales very lucky.
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  2. #12

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    Default Re: Guirado's disallowed try

    Quote Originally Posted by DocY View Post
    This has had me thinking: if the Welsh hooker had kicked the ball, it'd have probably been advantage over - a kick under no pressure.
    So why would you treat a big wound-up pass differently? He was still under no pressure and used the ball as he wished..
    Law 7.1. Advantage:
    b. May be territorial. Play has moved towards the offending team’s dead-ball line.
    c. May be a combination of tactical and territorial.


    Because the "advantage over" call after a kick then comes from the "b" or "c" criteria - territorial. A wound up pass gives no territorial advantage.

    Sevu Reece had an intercept try called back in the NZL v AUS game at Eden Park after an advantage Gold from a Black knock-on at kick off. There were three passes, and the fourth was intercepted, but referee Jaco Peyper called it back for the scrum because, in his words "It was all behind the advantage line - they had to push their passes". I am quite sure that, had Genia kicked the ball, Peyper would have called advantage over
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 3 Weeks Ago at 20:10.
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  3. #13
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    Default Re: Guirado's disallowed try

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    Law 7.1. Advantage:
    b. May be territorial. Play has moved towards the offending team’s dead-ball line.
    c. May be a combination of tactical and territorial.


    Because the "advantage over" call after a kick then comes from the "b" or "c" criteria - territorial. A wound up pass gives no territorial advantage.
    My understanding (though admittedly I didn't always referee it this way) is that a kick under no pressure, regardless of the outcome, was considered tactical advantage as the team had the opportunity to use the ball as they wished.

    Sevu Reece had an intercept try called back in the NZL v AUS game at Eden Park after an advantage Gold from a Black knock-on at kick off. There were three passes, and the fourth was intercepted, but referee Jaco Peyper called it back for the scrum because, in his words "It was all behind the advantage line - they had to push their passes". I am quite sure that, had Genia kicked the ball, Peyper would have called advantage over
    Not entirely sure what he means by pushing passes, but if he meant they were under pressure then you couldn't call that tactical advantage. And Peyper does tend to let scrum advantages go on a little while anyway.

  4. #14

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    Default Re: Guirado's disallowed try

    Quote Originally Posted by DocY View Post
    My understanding (though admittedly I didn't always referee it this way) is that a kick under no pressure, regardless of the outcome, was considered tactical advantage as the team had the opportunity to use the ball as they wished..
    That's often been said, but in the pro game we are seeing examples of refs waiting to see the outcome before calling it

    The first one I remember was JP Doyle when the kick was for touch, he could see it was going out and called Adv Over .... and then when wind blew it back in field he added .. Nearly. And went back for the scrum


    We discussed it here

    (In this instance the advantage they were seeking was to make it dead ..ie

    being 20m upfield and dead = adv over
    Being 20m upfield and live = no advantage
    Last edited by crossref; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:10.

  5. #15

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    Default Re: Guirado's disallowed try

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    That's often been said, but in the pro game we are seeing examples of refs waiting to see the outcome before calling it

    The first one I remember was JP Doyle when the kick was for touch, he could see it was going out and called Adv Over .... and then when wind blew it back in field he added .. Nearly. And went back for the scrum


    We discussed it here

    (In this instance the advantage they were seeking was to make it dead ..

    being 20m upfield and dead = adv over
    Being 20m upfield and live = no advantage
    I guess a good argument could be made that this would be in accord with what Law 7 says about advantage having to be "clear and real"

    Law 7.1 Advantage:
    d. Must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain an advantage is not sufficient.
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  6. #16

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    Default Re: Guirado's disallowed try

    I like that ... But the implication is that we should , indeed, be waiting for the outcome of a kick to declare adv over, not just the action of kicking
    Last edited by crossref; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:10.

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    Default Re: Guirado's disallowed try

    Quote Originally Posted by DocY View Post
    My understanding (though admittedly I didn't always referee it this way) is that a kick under no pressure, regardless of the outcome, was considered tactical advantage as the team had the opportunity to use the ball as they wished.
    And that is the oft stated point on these forums.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Guirado's disallowed try

    So the same is presumably true for a single pass, not 2 or 3, under no pressure - since they had the freedom to kick but chose not to?

    In fact by that logic, any voluntary action under no pressure is scrum advantage over.

  9. #19

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    Default Re: Guirado's disallowed try

    Territory is part of it .. kicks go forward and passes go backwards

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Guirado's disallowed try

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Territory is part of it .. kicks go forward and passes go backwards
    Unless Ben Skeen is upstairs, where backwards appears to be optional

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