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  1. #1

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    Default Numbers

    Today's conundrum

    Red score a try, you award it, and when the try scorer gets to his feet and is released from his team mates hugs, you realise it's a player you have YC and have not yet given permission to come back on (ie he snuck back on illegally).
    A quick count confirms Red have 15 on the pitch, should be 14
    The player and the coach claim an honest mistake (they had timed ten mins, they thought you gestured at the previous scrum)



    Q1 can you disallow the try
    Q2 if not can red still attempt the conversion
    Q3 sanction ?

  2. #2

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    Default Re: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Today's conundrum

    Red score a try, you award it, and when the try scorer gets to his feet and is released from his team mates hugs, you realise it's a player you have YC and have not yet given permission to come back on (ie he snuck back on illegally).
    A quick count confirms Red have 15 on the pitch, should be 14
    The player and the coach claim an honest mistake (they had timed ten mins, they thought you gestured at the previous scrum)



    Q1 can you disallow the try
    Q2 if not can red still attempt the conversion
    Q3 sanction ?
    Q1 - No, 3.3 or 3.7
    Q2 - Not sure, but leaning toward Yes, but restart with a PK at center of halfway
    Q3 - YC --> RC

  3. #3

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    Default Re: Numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Today's conundrum

    Red score a try, you award it, and when the try scorer gets to his feet and is released from his team mates hugs, you realise it's a player you have YC and have not yet given permission to come back on (ie he snuck back on illegally).
    A quick count confirms Red have 15 on the pitch, should be 14
    The player and the coach claim an honest mistake (they had timed ten mins, they thought you gestured at the previous scrum)



    Q1 can you disallow the try
    Q2 if not can red still attempt the conversion
    Q3 sanction ?
    Q1. Yes - Under the terms of 3.7 an unfair advantage has been gained.
    Q2. N/A due to my answer to Q1
    Q3. Sanction is a PK restart at the half-way line, in line with the sanction stated at 3.7.
    --------------------

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  4. #4

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    Default Re: Numbers

    I would disallow it under 3.7- although probably not directly supported in law - and report it to the union.

    Interestingly if it was an AR that brought it to my attention rather than me noticing it I could disallow it without question under 6.14 (so long as we feel it falls under "foul play", which our old friends 9.27 and 9.28 probably cover)

    And YC => RC, restart with penalty.

    I still like the old Aussie Rules sanction - the offending teams score is wiped to zero. My team won a game like that once

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    Default Re: Numbers

    If the 'try' is being disallowed then should the mark for the penalty not be the place where you first became aware of the infringement, given that there isn't going to be a restart kick, as such, since no try has been scored?

  6. #6

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    Default Re: Numbers

    what about if the snuck player didn't score the try, but was instrumental in the lead up?

    Either way, I'd disallow the try, restart with PK and send player back to bin. I wouldn't red card.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Numbers

    Does 3.3 trump 3.7 or does 3.7 trump 3.3?


    3.3. A team may make an objection to the referee about the number of players in their
    opponents’ team. If a team has too many players, the referee orders the captain of that
    team to reduce the number appropriately. The score at the time of the objection remains
    unaltered.
    Sanction: Penalty.

    3.7. If a player re-joins or a replacement joins the match without the referee’s permission and
    the referee believes the player did so to gain an advantage, the player is guilty of
    misconduct. Sanction: Penalty.

    This is one where the grassroots are more open to the problem than the Big Boys. (so the chance of a WR ruling is less).


    Clearly both are offences BUT in 3.7 The player must get an advantage from it to be sanctioned. Hoever 3.3 is an offence plain and.

    It think in law, 3.3 is the first law and the part I've put in bold is paramount. the score stands if youve awarded it. I woudl consider a YC as a minimum in this situation.

    However, I'd like the Law makers to make it that the last phase is ignored in terms of any score.

    CErtainly happy if they simple rule that my interpretation is wrong.

  8. #8
    Rugby Club Member Flish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Numbers

    If I've awarded the try (but we've not had the conversion / restarted) I think I would be inclined to disallow the try, as you would in any other scenario where you didn't have all the info at the time you blew the whistle and you change your mind (eg foot in touch but you didn't see the flag until brought to your attention, or it turns out that 's the 5m line not the goal line (never happened to me, honest!)). If we've restarted then I think we're stuck in law as per 3.3 the score stands.

    3.7 is difficult as if being literal there has to be an advantage, and also intent, how do we judge that? If an honest mistake then they didn't offend to gain an advantage, they just got one by accident.

    Same for YC -> RC in this scenario, would need to be sure this was intentional - not sure how

  9. #9

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    Default Re: Numbers

    safety - emjoyment (nee equity) - law

    what the law says shouldnt always be the priority? Or why bother with that mantra in the first place?

  10. #10

    Referees in England


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    Default Re: Numbers

    Great to have so many different answers

    At grassroots level I certainly think you'd have more buy in from players if the try is disallowed (I really can't imagine red getting upset about that .. whereas I can imagine Blue being seriously aggreived if it's allowed)

    So my instinct is that the safe decision is to rely on 3.7 and disallow


    In which case PK only and get back in your bin to finish your time

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