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Thread: Gain in ground - taken back to 22

      
  1. #11
    Rugby Club Member Flish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gain in ground - taken back to 22

    Tackle happens where the tackle happens, if that's outside the 22 and the ball ends up inside the 22 then took back be it rucked, caterpillar'd, pushed back or passed (assuming no change of possession). Am with Mark ref scums and mauls not sure I would treat either differently

  2. #12

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    Default Re: Gain in ground - taken back to 22

    Quote Originally Posted by shep View Post
    Can a team get tackled outside the 22, form a ruck, for a centipede ruck, ruck the ball back into the 22 and then kick it out on the full for a gain in ground?
    Simple answer NO.

    As soon as the ball get heeled back into the 22 give a nice loud shout of "Taken Back" so everyone knows whats happened and can't argue later if they kick direct to touch.

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    Default Re: Gain in ground - taken back to 22

    I think if an attacking scrum is formed outside the 22 and is driven in, the attackers took the balll into the 22.
    So if it were to lose control and the derender clear - they would get gain in ground.
    Similarly if an attacking maul drives into the 22 and the defenders strip the ball the attackers took it in and defencers get gain in ground.


    However I do not believe caterpillering the ruck changes where the the ruck is.
    If the defenders win the ball outside they took it in.

    But there will be cases where a ruck forms on the line of the 22.
    And one day i will see a proper old style ruck with the ball at the players feet and being driven forward like a scrum. (but if I see that then I think this servant could depart in peace.)

    In all cases want the ref to clearly communicate to the player whether it is outside or inside and let them play to that decision.

  4. #14

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    Default Re: Gain in ground - taken back to 22

    Quote Originally Posted by Camquin View Post
    I think if an attacking scrum is formed outside the 22 and is driven in, the attackers took the balll into the 22.
    So if it were to lose control and the derender clear - they would get gain in ground.
    As long as the attackers won the ball in the scrum first, so that it was within their half of the scrum when crossing the 22. If the defenders won the hook against the head, and were then pushed back, in terms of Law (but perhaps not morally or equitably) they would have taken the ball into the 22. ??
    Be reasonable - do it my way.

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    Default Re: Gain in ground - taken back to 22

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    Simple answer NO.

    As soon as the ball get heeled back into the 22 give a nice loud shout of "Taken Back" so everyone knows whats happened and can't argue later if they kick direct to touch.
    In some matches I'm starting to think "when does this become coaching?". But it's also a good reminder for the referee!
    Be reasonable - do it my way.

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    Default Re: Gain in ground - taken back to 22

    Quote Originally Posted by chbg View Post
    In some matches I'm starting to think "when does this become coaching?". But it's also a good reminder for the referee!
    This was a topic on the podcast with JP Doyle this week, and he acknowledged the dilemma and even highlighted a mistake he once made, the way he describes it is offering players information to allow them to make a good decision (ie what you are seeing from where you are, as their position may offer them different information, but it's the refs view that counts) - coaching would be telling them what to do, we should be encouraged to give them enough information to make a good decision (eg "no hands now")

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    Default Re: Gain in ground - taken back to 22

    Quote Originally Posted by Flish View Post
    This was a topic on the podcast with JP Doyle this week, and he acknowledged the dilemma and even highlighted a mistake he once made, the way he describes it is offering players information to allow them to make a good decision (ie what you are seeing from where you are, as their position may offer them different information, but it's the refs view that counts) - coaching would be telling them what to do, we should be encouraged to give them enough information to make a good decision (eg "no hands now")
    It could be argued that "No Hand"s is coaching.

    Whereas "Ruck" is giving them the information to decide themselves if they can use hands or not?

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    Default Re: Gain in ground - taken back to 22

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    It could be argued that "No Hand"s is coaching.

    Whereas "Ruck" is giving them the information to decide themselves if they can use hands or not?
    I agree, but then these things are dynamic, for example first in and hands on, on feet is ok but before they can lift and get the ball away a team mate piles in and the jackler goes off feet / to ground there's still the opportunity for a fair contest but this player is now illegal - a call of "no hands now" can be enough to continue a fair contest and crack on without penalties - of course some refs are less chatty and leave you to work it out / try your luck - and some players are more inclined to respond than others - we can't win!

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    Default Re: Gain in ground - taken back to 22

    I thought the JP Doyle podcast was really interesting and reminded me of a confusing call I made at the weekend when the jackler, perfectly legally, had his hands on the ball and the ruck formed. The tackle assist regained his feet and went to also put his hands on the ball. I called "hands away" and he did so but to my surprise, and his credit, so did the the jackler and the opportunity for the turnover was lost. Entirely my fault, wrong words used and an apology followed. Also made the mistake towards the end of last season for a player who was in front of the kicker, he started to move forward, I meant to say something like "stay there" or "don't move", but heard myself actually saying "offside". The player stopped, didn't actually move forward and was played onside by the advancing kicker. No offence was committed but the coach of the opposition was not at all impressed when the expected penalty didn't follow. Again my error and I am now working hard to improve my communication skills. It appears I have some way to go!

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    Default Re: Gain in ground - taken back to 22

    Well, with the clear self analysis that you have applied you are on your way! Good luck

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