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Thread: Folauís online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

      
  1. #211

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    Default Re: Folauís online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    I guess you are American so perhaps you weren't taught correct English at school.
    Try: I guess you are an American. So perhaps you were not correctly taught English while in school.



    My cheeky remark on capitalization was to test your dedication to atheism.
    Last edited by Not Kurt Weaver; 07-03-20 at 05:03.

  2. #212

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    Default Re: Folauís online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not Kurt Weaver View Post
    Try: I guess you are an American. So perhaps you were not correctly taught English while in school.
    If ya gonna talk English, ya godda talk it proppa like wot da Queen does!

    Quote Originally Posted by Not Kurt Weaver View Post
    cheeky remark on capitalization was to test your dedication to atheism.
    You didn't capitalise "atheism"..... just kidding

    The fact that I am an atheist, and think that those who believe in invisible sky deities are suffering from a silly form of self-delusion, does not mean I don't respect those people's rights to believe what they want to believe. If it comforts them to believe, then so be it.

    However, I draw the line of respect at the point when they start shoving their belief system in my face, or use that belief system, as Folau did, to denigrate, threaten or give offence to those who believe differently.
    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
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    Default Re: Folauís online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

    However, I draw the line of respect at the point when they start shoving their belief system in my face, or use that belief system, as Folau did, to denigrate, threaten or give offence to those who believe differently.


    Part of these religions is to spread the word. This means to "shove it in your face" as it were. I don't think that IF Denigrated or threatened anyone. I'll qualify that by saying, he was going to send the mentioned groups to hell. Neither did he say that any of those ways of life make anyone less equal as a person. While people did take offence to the remarks, he cannot control other peoples reactions/feelings.

    To quote Stepehn Fry: 'I find that offensive. ' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that. ' Well, so f*cking what."

  4. #214

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    Default Re: Folauís online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

    Bollox. Are you suggesting that his brand of nonsense is tolerant. Then you have seriously missed the point of his existence on this earth. Catholics out number his pathetic little ę*church*Ľ quite a bit. His is not a belief system, it is just inbreeding affecting their capacity to think straight.
    RELATED ARTICLE
    Inside the radical beliefs of Folau family church.
    FOLAU CONTROVERSY
    Why the PM and most Christians are 'going to hell'


    Folau's cousin Josiah - a member of the congregation - has claimed the Catholic Church is a "synagogue of Satan".

    "Roman Catholicism is masked devil worship," he also said.

    The Jesus Christ Church, with 30 members based in Kenthurst, in Sydney's Hills District, is led by Folau's father, Pastor Eni.
    His beliefs are way outside mainstream Christian bieliefs. Only 30 family members buy into this brand of Christianity. Spread the word? They only f@&#ing have 30 members, he doesn’t need to use twitter, just needs to speak up around the Sunday dinner table. With a bit of luck France will send him back down under to ye, since you love the guy so much. We have more than enough loons up this side of the planet, thank you very much.

    Although, it is boar hunting season here right now. Perhaps some club members could encourage Folau to go for early morning runs in the local forest. How tragic would that be?
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 07-03-20 at 22:03.
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what weíre inclined to accept."
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    Default Re: Folauís online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    Part of these religions is to spread the word. This means to "shove it in your face" as it were.
    He doesn't get a pass on that just because his homophobic church says so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    I don't think that IF denigrated anyone.
    Telling a group of people that they are unworthy of eternal salvation is denigrating them, especially if they are Christians - so yes, he IS denigrating them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    I don't think that IF threatened anyone. I'll qualify that by saying, he was going to send the mentioned groups to hell.
    There is pretty much no greater threat to a devout Christian than threatening them with eternal damnation, so yes, he did threaten people. It doesn't matter whether he his capable of sending people to hell, he's threatening that his God will do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    Neither did he say that any of those ways of life make anyone less equal as a person.
    Well yes, that is exactly what he did... see above

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    While people did take offence to the remarks, he cannot control other peoples reactions/feelings.
    Right, so

    I call a gay man a fecking queer but its not my fault if he takes offence because I "cannot control other peoples reactions/feelings."

    I call a black man a fecking nigger, but its not my fault if he takes offence because I "cannot control other peoples reactions/feelings."

    See how that works?

    Let me make this as clear as I can for you.

    As an atheist, I am not at all threatened, intimidated or offended by his declaration that I am hell-bound. I don't believe in deities, or gods or heaven or hell or any of that stuff, so his words have no impact on me in that regard. However, as a member of the human race, I am deeply offended by his attack on gay and lesbian people.
    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
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  6. #216

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    Default Re: Folauís online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

    Mods, isn't it about time this thread was closed?
    And the last post deleted. We don't want Google indexing that sort of language with this site
    Last edited by crossref; 08-03-20 at 12:03.

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    Default Re: Folauís online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Mods, isn't it about time this thread was closed?
    And the last post deleted. We don't want Google indexing that sort of language with this site
    1. Nothing wrong with that kind of language if you are making a point in the way I was and not using it ad hominem.

    2. That isn't how Google Indexing works anyway.

    3. What about Free SpeechTM
    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
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  8. #218

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    Default Re: Folauís online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    1. Nothing wrong with that kind of language if you are making a point in the way I was and not using it ad hominem.
    I agree there is nothing wrong with using the kind of language to make a point. In these two examples it wasn't that ad hominem.

    However in these recent posts below, you will find that ad hominem thingy. I must say it is an ineffective method, it may satisfy your defense mechanism temporarily, but it is not productive in solving this problem.

    Consider an attack on why his statement is wrong factually, for instance you could quote a clergy on why this original post by IF is not accurate. You could actually attack his interpretation of that actual bible verse, but more importantly you could include his entire post. A recent article I read had IF statement paraphrased down to "hell awaits gays". A tad misleading. He actually prefaces the statement with a Warning and ends it with a solution for those who may fear hell. i don't agree with him, but his argument is better than yours.

    From a free speech standpoint his has actually turned out to be more productive to inclusion in rugby and that wasn't his intent.

    1. He was fired
    2. He coach was threatened (because of his inciting other, according to you)
    3. Wigan announced pride day 20 minutes after his signing
    4. a misleading response was reported at dragons game concerning confiscated flags
    5. Dragons, his team, announce a pride day

    IF put it out for everyone to talk about and solve it, and he was to stuck in "silly form of delusion" to know it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    They won't have to. I am fairly good at reading religious froot loops (on another forum I debate YEC's, and believe me, you will struggle to find another group that contains more bigotry, more religious nutjobbery and more outright Stupidity than that crowd)

    If I read Folau correctly, he will not be able to shut up - he could shut up when his job was on the line in Australia, and I predict he won'tl be able to now. Did you see his vile statements about the victims of the Australian bushfires, in which he said they were suffering, "a little taste of God's judgement". This is while all the crap was still going on with Rugby Australia!

    Folau is a very nasty man who is utterly insensitive to the pain and suffering of others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post




    The fact that I am an atheist, and think that those who believe in invisible sky deities are suffering from a silly form of self-delusion, does not mean I don't respect those people's rights to believe what they want to believe. If it comforts them to believe, then so be it.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    He doesn't get a pass on that just because his homophobic church says so.

    .
    Now this below

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post

    3. What about Free SpeechTM
    This is a private website, so they mods are perfectly entitled to stop this or any thread. This is meant to be a support and answer center to promote better refs.

    HOWEVER, I would argue that this topic of IF speech is very much rugby related. And ref related. WR and governing bodies have declared rugby as inclusive. (I find it as necessary as declaring oxygen as good) It should be inclusive without any statement or overture, but it may be necessary for those not keeping up evolutionarily. There are gay rugby clubs and I think even a governing body (I don't know its by laws and intent). So it is possible a ref will encounter some form of homophobia on the park.


    And lastly, I do not know any devout homosexual Christians. But if I did, I'm pretty sure they have come to an understanding of this passage presented by IF. The "devout" thing is kind of a give away. and I'm pretty sure they would explain it to others. Kinda goes with being devout. and I'm pretty sure they know IF is incorrect. and I'm pretty sure they even pray for IF


    and lastly lastly, free speech is working, hate speech is free speech, hate speech is countered by free speech, do not put limits on the mechanism that brought rights to those who deserve it.
    Last edited by Not Kurt Weaver; 09-03-20 at 03:03.

  9. #219
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    Default Re: Folauís online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

    My twopence...

    Above and beyond causing offence, one of the problems with the kind of non-inclusive hate speech spewed by IF is that it causes pain and internal oppression to people growing up inside that belief system.

    Imagine being born into a family in IF's church, and finding out as you are growing up that you are gay. You would be forced to keep it secret and would be terrified that if your family found out they'd hate you because they believed you were going to hell.

    This is a form of child abuse and many gay people in strict religions (not just Christian) attempt suicide as a way out. Sadly, some succeed.

    Worse, in some Muslim-majority countries, gay people are at risk of being murdered by their own families, to erase the shame they feel at having a gay person in their family, because of religious teachings about homosexuality.

    Which brings me to my other point: intolerance in our (Western) society emboldens attacks on minorities, in this case gay-bashers.

    And, as they say in the classics, the holocaust didn't begin with Auschwitz: it began with demonising and dehumanising Jews, gays, Gypsies, etc.

    So this is not a zero-sum game: intolerance causes pain, suffering, abuse, attacks, suicide, and death. Up to and including mass murder.

    We need to be vigilant against intolerance, wherever and whenever it rears its ugly head.

    Kudos to Rugby for supporting tolerance and inclusion around the world, and for pulling the plug on intolerant hate-speech.

  10. #220

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    Default Re: Folauís online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

    At last, someone who actually gets it, and can speak more eloquently about it than I can

    Quote Originally Posted by belladonna View Post
    Above and beyond causing offence, one of the problems with the kind of non-inclusive hate speech spewed by IF is that it causes pain and internal oppression to people growing up inside that belief system.

    Imagine being born into a family in IF's church, and finding out as you are growing up that you are gay. You would be forced to keep it secret and would be terrified that if your family found out they'd hate you because they believed you were going to hell.

    This is a form of child abuse and many gay people in strict religions (not just Christian) attempt suicide as a way out. Sadly, some succeed.
    As one of you the memebrs here has already guessed, I have been dealing with a problem recently (which is one of the reasons I am so hot on this topic). I could go into a little more detail if I didn't post under my real name, but suffice to say, the young person concerned is gay, not yet out, has already tried once and thankfully did not succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by belladonna View Post
    Worse, in some Muslim-majority countries, gay people are at risk of being murdered by their own families, to erase the shame they feel at having a gay person in their family, because of religious teachings about homosexuality.

    Which brings me to my other point: intolerance in our (Western) society emboldens attacks on minorities, in this case gay-bashers.
    Indeed it does. Too many people posting in this thread simply do not understand that tolerance of rants like Folau's have consequences for others.

    As an extreme example, you need only to look at what has been happening in the USA where there is a racist, homophobic, white nationalist administration. White supremacists and gay bashers are feeling emboldened to carry out racist demonstrations like the Charlottesville "rally" where a white nationalist drives a car into a counter-protesting crowd at speed killing one and injuring dozens, and attacks like the Orlando Night Club spree shooting in which killed 49 people and wounded 53 others. The number of murders linked to white nationalism is up, the number of gay bashings is up. The perpetrators feel emboldened because they believe Trump has their backs.

    Quote Originally Posted by belladonna View Post
    And, as they say in the classics, the holocaust didn't begin with Auschwitz: it began with demonising and dehumanising Jews, gays, Gypsies, etc.
    The demonizing of Jews began in the Weimar Republic (Germany after WW1 and before Hitler) in the early 1930s, laying the groundwork for the Holocaust. As the classics also say,

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing."
    - Edmund Burke


    Quote Originally Posted by belladonna View Post
    So this is not a zero-sum game: intolerance causes pain, suffering, abuse, attacks, suicide, and death. Up to and including mass murder.

    We need to be vigilant against intolerance, wherever and whenever it rears its ugly head.
    "Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty".
    - Wendell Phillips



    Quote Originally Posted by belladonna View Post
    Kudos to Rugby for supporting tolerance and inclusion around the world, and for pulling the plug on intolerant hate-speech.
    The shame is, it seems not everyone in Rugby Union is on board with it!
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 09-03-20 at 19:03.
    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
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