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Thread: Pushed by player - my fault for being in field of play?

      
  1. #41
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    Default Re: Pushed by player - my fault for being in field of play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelflife View Post
    As I said previously Marc you are technically correct and quoting the same law as you quoted the first time wont make you more technically correct.

    I tried to point out that there is a difference between an appointed impartial TJ and a substitute carrying a flag, to me there is a huge difference, to you it seems there is none as ... LAW 6 !!!

    In the OPs senario you effectively have a substitute (with a flag) getting involved in a fracas and getting shoved you are going to RC that player because he has a pushed a sub (with a flag). The only difference between that sub and another sub is that he has a flag.

    RC a player for that is a huge call in the context of the game, saying that the DC will sort it out wont help with the result of the game.
    You gave two scenarios:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelflife View Post
    There will be an official team of three appointment where they will all be trained refs and impartial and have flagging powers and will chat to the ref re trends etc.
    Known as Assistant Referees. THey are not TJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelflife View Post
    The other scenario will be where only a ref is appointed and then both side will provide someone to run the line, this could be a substitute ,a coach or a supporter who happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. They usually dont want to do the job and clearly will be supporting their team as they jog/walk up and down the sideline. They dont have flagging powers and you wont listen to any "advise" that they may give you.
    Known as Touch Judges.

    Law 6 Principle seems to concur:

    Every match is under the control of match officials who consist of the referee and two touch
    judges or assistant referees.
    Additional persons, as authorised by the match organisers may
    include the reserve referee and/or reserve assistant referee, the television match official, the
    time-keeper, the match doctor, the team doctors, the non-playing members of the teams and
    the ball persons.
    Assistant referees and touch judges are responsible for signalling touch, touch in-goal and the
    success or otherwise of kicks at goal. In addition, assistant referees provide assistance as the
    referee directs, including the reporting of foul play.


    Both covered by the law book(s per Law 6) as match officials. I am still struggling to understand how you disagree that a TJ is a "match official".
    Or to put it another way how does a person get appointed as a TJ (Match official (as per the law book) as opposed to an unfortunate sod asked to run touch but given no standing?

  2. #42

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    Default Re: Pushed by player - my fault for being in field of play?

    So just to be clear (thanks for quoting law 6 again for me ) , In a scenario where the red team provide a TJ who is also a sub. A fracas occurs and the TJ and another red sub get involved trying to break it up. Both are shoved by different blue players.

    In that instance you will red card the blue player who shoved the TJ and then give the other blue player a verbal warning for getting involved in a fracas ?
    Courage is knowing what lies on the other side and still opening the door !

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Pushed by player - my fault for being in field of play?

    I'll answer your question whilst noting you've not answered mine.


    Yes. The one acting as a match official gets the extra protection.

  4. #44

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    Default Re: Pushed by player - my fault for being in field of play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    I'll answer your question whilst noting you've not answered mine.


    Yes. The one acting as a match official gets the extra protection.
    Ive never disagreed with your view that they are deemed a match official under law 6.

    I just think that a red card would be a hard sell in that situation.

    Dont get me wrong I wouldnt let any player give a TJ a hard time or abuse over a decision they made and appreciate their help (those that do) I simple struggle with the suggestion/premise that giving a flag to someone who has to be prompted to put the flag up when the ball goes out, who has no inkling of the laws and is probably having a fag as he ambles up and down the line 10m behind play can be deemed in any reasonable sense of the word to be a match official.
    Courage is knowing what lies on the other side and still opening the door !

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Pushed by player - my fault for being in field of play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    You gave two scenarios:

    Known as Assistant Referees. THey are not TJs.

    Known as Touch Judges.

    Law 6 Principle seems to concur:

    Every match is under the control of match officials who consist of the referee and two touch
    judges or assistant referees.
    Additional persons, as authorised by the match organisers may
    include the reserve referee and/or reserve assistant referee, the television match official, the
    time-keeper, the match doctor, the team doctors, the non-playing members of the teams and
    the ball persons.
    Assistant referees and touch judges are responsible for signalling touch, touch in-goal and the
    success or otherwise of kicks at goal. In addition, assistant referees provide assistance as the
    referee directs, including the reporting of foul play.


    Both covered by the law book(s per Law 6) as match officials. I am still struggling to understand how you disagree that a TJ is a "match official".
    Or to put it another way how does a person get appointed as a TJ (Match official (as per the law book) as opposed to an unfortunate sod asked to run touch but given no standing?
    Some Unions do indeed appoint match officials who ARE appointed as TJs and not ARs.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Pushed by player - my fault for being in field of play?

    THey may but the are TJs who ever appoints them and they class as match officials.

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    Default Re: Pushed by player - my fault for being in field of play?

    This discussion may be heading the same way as many other forum discussions.
    A newbie TJ asked a question, how helpful is it to them if you quote Law 6 multiple times?

    There are two prevailing currents on RRF, which one do you subscribe to?
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
    John Henry Newman

  8. #48

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    Default Re: Pushed by player - my fault for being in field of play?

    shall I close this thread? I doubt if there is any more to learn. If I get 5 'likes' I'll take that as consensus to close.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  9. #49

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    Default Re: Pushed by player - my fault for being in field of play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    shall I close this thread? I doubt if there is any more to learn. If I get 5 'likes' I'll take that as consensus to close.
    You mods should moderate like (I imagine ) you ref. Ask tell penalise , YC.

    You don't ask the players to vote

  10. #50

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    Default Re: Pushed by player - my fault for being in field of play?

    I've gt a related issue - I was president of a club for a couple of years a while ago and turned up to watch a night match at my club after not being appointed. The officially appointed referee didn't have a To3, but by laws down here permit any accredited AR to be considered as such, and as I still had my gear from the early game I pulled it on and ran the line. 15mins in the referee broke down with a calf injury and I had to run on as the main ref for the remainder of the match.

    I wasn't appointed to the match as an AR and according to some of you I shouldn't have been afforded any real protections, given that I was a spectator/club member. What about the moment I stepped on to the ground as the unappointed referee? What if no referee turns up to a game and the clubs are required to provide one (or one each half) - are we going to allow assaults on these referee's as they aren't appointed?

    MO's are a critical part of the game and as such, appointed or not, if a player, coach or club medic were to assault the MO I'd be removing them from the playing enclosure through RC or whatever powers I have.

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