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Thread: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindpugh View Post
    Spot on Didds. As a former hooker I know a quick strike will give No.8 opportunity to pick up and go. If defending scrum half is stood at rear of scrum (before scrum starts) then he can see where 8 goes and act as an additional backrow and also inform his defence.

    If he stands at centre of tunnel (where the law states) then he is unlikley to have time to get around blindside in time to act as another defender.

    To put game in context this was a RFU National League game and final score was a difference of 9 points (to offending team's scrum half). There were a number of occassions when this happened which should have resulted in a kickable penalty at goal.

    Very material in my book but what do you do when referee interpretation is different?
    As it was a National League game you could always let the appointments officers know that you think the referee may have misinterpreted the laws and if they feel you are correct then they will ensure the referee is made aware so they don’t make the same mistake.
    All you players can do is say something along the lines of “excuse me sir, I don’t think he’s allowed to be there at the start of the scrum”. If the referee disagrees then I’m afraid it is tough luck for that game and get on with it. When I was a captain (and of course knew the laws!) I once asked the referee very politely as we went off for half time if he he could actually check a particular law for me. He didn’t say anything to me after the restart but it was obvious he had checked and was now getting it right.

  2. #12

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    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    If it is a London Society game the Captain can fill in the online report that is done every game , scoring the ref as needing development on the relevant factor, and adding a note to explain the Law issue



    (Always best to check the Law book first to make sure you are right)

    Last edited by crossref; 08-01-20 at 19:01.

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    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    My main question is how does a captain/ player question a referees interpretation of a law without getting into trouble?

    Don't question the referees interpretation during the match. Adapt to, or even take advantage of, to the circumstances.

    but this was material and had an impact upon the game and it is no good discussing in bar after the game.

    I can't really see how this is material at all. He could have run around to the back of his side of the scrum as soon as you put the ball in. The only thing he is doing is disadvantaging himself, in that he can no longer go up to the ball as an offside line and pressure your SH.

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    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindpugh View Post
    Spot on Didds. As a former hooker I know a quick strike will give No.8 opportunity to pick up and go. If defending scrum half is stood at rear of scrum (before scrum starts) then he can see where 8 goes and act as an additional backrow and also inform his defence.

    If he stands at centre of tunnel (where the law states) then he is unlikley to have time to get around blindside in time to act as another defender.

    To put game in context this was a RFU National League game and final score was a difference of 9 points (to offending team's scrum half). There were a number of occassions when this happened which should have resulted in a kickable penalty at goal.

    Very material in my book but what do you do when referee interpretation is different?
    Sorry, I disagree. I coach a 9 who starts legal and then goes to his back foot as a default defensive position in certain field areas. He's quick enough to beat the heel and pick up.
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    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by thepercy View Post
    My main question is how does a captain/ player question a referees interpretation of a law without getting into trouble?

    Don't question the referees interpretation during the match. Adapt to, or even take advantage of, to the circumstances.

    [/COLOR]
    See, I disagree with this. As a referee with many years experience I still get things wrong or may make a decision that a player may find difficult to understand/accept. Provided it is done in an approriate way (at the right time, with respect, not argumentative, etc) I'm quite happy to address/discuss any interpretation with the captain or relevant player during the game. (on more than 1 occasion the captain/player has convinced me )

    Further, sometimes I'll make a decision that I'll know immediately will raise eyebrows. In such cases, I'll go to lengths to explain why I made the decision.

    I suspect that the SH in the OP kept harping on the same issue, so the ref finally got sick of it.
    Last edited by Dickie E; 09-01-20 at 00:01.
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    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    See, I disagree with this. As a referee with many years experience I still get things wrong or may make a decision that a player may find difficult to understand/accept. Provided it is done in an approriate way (at the right time, with respect, not argumentative, etc) I'm quite happy to address/discuss any interpretation with the captain or relevant player during the game. (on more than 1 occasion the captain/player has convinced me )
    Exactly this, don't get me wrong 9 times out of 10 the grumbles are just grumbles (watch for gouging is my favourite pointless request from a captain of all time) but sometimes they're right, there will be something going on that's a bit unusual, or outside our primary focus that could be material and the captain is right to politely question it - don't get me wrong it's only human for us as refs to be a bit frustrated or disappointed in ourselves that we've missed it, especially if we later ping it after it's been pointed out, but at same time we can never see everything - they need to act appropriately and we need to address it appropriately.

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    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    The most pointless complaint is when they tell you about last week's ref ...

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    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by thepercy View Post
    I can't really see how this is material at all. He could have run around to the back of his side of the scrum as soon as you put the ball in. The only thing he is doing is disadvantaging himself, in that he can no longer go up to the ball as an offside line and pressure your SH.
    its potentially hugely material. See my post above. It saves the s/hallf some time from moving aroudn the scrum. It may be a shoirt amount of time - but how much time do you need to get over the gain line/use the overlap?

    If you cannot see that then we'll have to agree to disagree ...



    didds

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    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    This has been quite a good thread.

    I have re calibrated my view of how material this can be (ie I consider it more material than I did before )

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    Default Re: Scrum Law 19.28 - scrum half position - your advice please

    At National level I would be absolutely amazed if a referee gave a penalty for the scrum half standing at the back of the scrum instead of at the middle. At best its a management thing, not a penalty thing. i.e. tell the SH where to stand at the next scrum.

    Just get the Captain to ask the referee at downtime if he could keep an eye on the SH not starting at the middle. Put the thought in his head, don't question his knowledge of the law.

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