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Thread: Knock on into the dead ball area.

      
  1. #31

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    Default Re: Knock on into the dead ball area.

    Flish 7.3.f means something else (see post 23)

    But really any discussion of how tactical and territorial advantage can be gained is pretty esoteric when faced with the simple clarity of 12.11 ..


    12.11 Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre drop-out.


    . A 22DO isn't the result of a knock on, it's the ( normal and accepted ) result of taking or sending the ball into the opponents in goal, and the ball going dead.
    Last edited by crossref; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:01.

  2. #32

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    Default Re: Knock on into the dead ball area.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Flish 7.3.f means something else (see post 23)

    But really any discussion of how tactical and territorial advantage can be gained is pretty esoteric when faced with the simple clarity of 12.11 ..


    12.11 Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre drop-out.


    . A 22DO isn't the result of a knock on, it's the ( normal and accepted ) result of taking or sending the ball into the opponents in goal, and the ball going dead.
    CR, the problem with 12.11 as you read it is that (imo) the ball is not played into in-goal where it is knocked on. I read 12.11 as applying to a legal play of the ball into the in-goal only.

  3. #33

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    Default Re: Knock on into the dead ball area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinky View Post
    CR, the problem with 12.11 as you read it is that (imo) the ball is not played into in-goal where it is knocked on. I read 12.11 as applying to a legal play of the ball into the in-goal only.
    Pinky, tbh i would accept that argument, which is why this discussion normally focuses on the scenario of taking the ball legally into the in goal (carry or kick) and .. then knocking it on inside the in goal , and it goes dead...


    (The old Law Book used to distinguish between the two, with different Laws. But now there is no distinction made)
    Last edited by crossref; 4 Weeks Ago at 13:01.

  4. #34
    Rugby Club Member Flish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Knock on into the dead ball area.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Pinky, tbh i would accept that argument, which is why this discussion normally focuses on the scenario of taking the ball legally into the in goal (carry or kick) and .. then knocking it on inside the in goal , and it goes dead...


    (The old Law Book used to distinguish between the two, with different Laws. But now there is no distinction made)
    Which is why we need more words in the law book, not less - similar confusion happens with a charge down into in goal - is that 'played' or not - pretty sure I've called that one both ways now (and been 'wrong' each time!)

  5. #35

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    Default Re: Knock on into the dead ball area.

    There is a definition of played
    It means Intentionally Touched

    (which includes charge downs and, indeed, knock ons for that matter)

    A knock on is playing the ball , but you are not intentionally sending it over a particular line or intentionally playing it in any specific direction (otherwise if you were it would be a PK)
    Last edited by crossref; 4 Weeks Ago at 13:01.

  6. #36

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    Default Re: Knock on into the dead ball area.

    as much as I dislike it, law 12.11 seems to be the only law that covers the OP.

    Now, a knock on whilst in-goal might be a different fish.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Knock on into the dead ball area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    If you gave a 22 for a knock on into in goal I would mark it down as an error on an assessment.
    Given the infrequency of assessments at the moment, you could probably say whatever you wanted and I'd be happy just to have been assessed! Summary of my position is much the same a crossref has argued so I won't repeat it here.

    As ever, great to mull this over and see the different views available.

  8. #38

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    Default Re: Knock on into the dead ball area.

    I can see both arguments but am nore than happy to accept OB's (amongst other's stance) as the accepted view. I suppose its that old "what does your society tell you blow", and do that even if you disagree.

    Eventually it's down to credibility. The debates over semantics don't help a ref's credibility if he is seen blowing a different manner to what the last several refs have done, whoever's debate is correct.

    didds
    Last edited by didds; 4 Weeks Ago at 14:01.

  9. #39

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    Default Re: Knock on into the dead ball area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    as much as I dislike it, law 12.11 seems to be the only law that covers the OP.

    Now, a knock on whilst in-goal might be a different fish.
    It is a fallacy to think that forensic argument over the wording of various laws can answer all problems. It can't for the simple reason that the "Laws" are not written to the necessary legalistic standards.

    In the older law books, a defending scrum was ordered for a knock-on in in-goal, but the knock-on into in-goal was not covered. This gap was noticed and covered by making all knock-ons in or into in-goal sanctioned by a defending scrum. That is the normal sanction for a knock-on unless the opponents actually play and gain an advantage. Making the ball dead is the antithesis of playing. The referee awarding a 22 DO is not anything gained by the players - it is given by the (mistaken) whim of the referee.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Knock on into the dead ball area.

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    ... unless the opponents actually play and gain an advantage. Making the ball dead is the antithesis of playing. The referee awarding a 22 DO is not anything gained by the players...
    I think that's an excellent point. That and the question of 'what will 30 players expect' is probably enough for me to lean away from my prior answer and endorse the scrum. Thanks.

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