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Thread: Place of Conversion kick

      
  1. #21

    Referees in Sri Lanka


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    Default Re: Place of Conversion kick

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    My point is that we do not keep to the strict letter of the law.

    I think swapping a more difficult angle for a better footing makes sense.
    If one wants to be pedantic possibly no. But in the context of the game and the referees role is to facilitate I beeive it must be yes.
    Vimal Perera

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Place of Conversion kick

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    We move scrums away from muddy patches for safety grounds. Can't really think of a safety issue for moving a kick. I'd allow forward or back, but not side to side. What if the try was right in the corner, would you allow the kick to be take further in-field, if not then there's a consistency issue there.
    It has to stay withing the touchlines. So no consistency issue really.

  3. #23

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    Default Re: Place of Conversion kick

    No-one I know thinks that moving a scrum away from a dangerous area of ground to prevent an injury is unacceptably flexing the law. I would also argue that a muddy hole where a player would be placing their non-kicking foot during a PK is a danger to the player. Imagine if a kicker blew a knee in that hole because you as the referee demanded that they take the kick from the mark - is that not a failure to appropriately apply your duty of care to the players?

  4. #24

    Referees in England


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    Default Re: Place of Conversion kick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod Burton View Post
    No-one I know thinks that moving a scrum away from a dangerous area of ground to prevent an injury is unacceptably flexing the law. I would also argue that a muddy hole where a player would be placing their non-kicking foot during a PK is a danger to the player. Imagine if a kicker blew a knee in that hole because you as the referee demanded that they take the kick from the mark - is that not a failure to appropriately apply your duty of care to the players?
    In my OP scenario it wasn't too dangerous to kick. If it was that
    dangerous , I would question why you are even playing on the pitch

    It was just very muddy and slippy

    He could have moved (a longer distance) back

  5. #25

    Referees in Scotland


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    Default Re: Place of Conversion kick

    I see no problem with this. Bigger things to worry about in a game of rugby.

    for KOs I regularly have to ask kickers to move to the Centre, they usually want to move to the blindside to give their kick more hang time. I’ll allow a move if it’s muddy but encourage the to centerfield if there are no ground issues.

  6. #26

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    Default Re: Place of Conversion kick

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    ....

    He could have moved (a longer distance) back
    My old club's home ground was shared with a soccer club which insisted on council cutting the grass no more than 1.5" long and trained twice a week in the same area. This meant the area from the 22 out to 30ish metres along the 15 were pretty well stuffed by the halfway point in the season. THe ground was otherwise pretty good and suitable for play, bar directly under the posts where the f**king idiot of a local goalie would stand and scuff the ground until there was no grass - then blame the rugby players for the damage.

    Scrums in the damaged area were moved to prevent further damage, but if there had been rain in the previous days, the damaged area would be ok for most of the match but would eventually degrade to slippery. Good enough to play on, but the action of placing the non-kicking foot during a place kick was unsafe (IMO). If a mark was made in the area, moving the kick further back would mean it was out of range for almost all teams and would need it to be moved from around 22 out to 33-35 out to reach a non-slippery part. When I refereed there I would discuss the issue pre-match with the captains who had zero issue with allowing a mark to be made 3 m closer to the sideline to get out of the area without resulting in a kick from 15m behind the mark.

    If this was wrong, then fine, but I'd prefer to be considered as acting with some empathy than rigidly applying laws - after all, isn't the majority of L2 refereeing courses aimed at having some empathy for the game?

  7. #27
    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

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    Default Re: Place of Conversion kick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod Burton View Post
    No-one I know thinks that moving a scrum away from a dangerous area of ground to prevent an injury is unacceptably flexing the law. I would also argue that a muddy hole where a player would be placing their non-kicking foot during a PK is a danger to the player. Imagine if a kicker blew a knee in that hole because you as the referee demanded that they take the kick from the mark - is that not a failure to appropriately apply your duty of care to the players?
    The discussion was a conversion, not a PK, so there is no mark, the player may choose anywhere in line with the place the ball was touched down. A PK I'd be less flexible on, because you're not required to kick for goal.

  8. #28

    Referees in England


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    Default Re: Place of Conversion kick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod Burton View Post
    My old club's home ground was shared with a soccer club which insisted on council cutting the grass no more than 1.5" long and trained twice a week in the same area. This meant the area from the 22 out to 30ish metres along the 15 were pretty well stuffed by the halfway point in the season. THe ground was otherwise pretty good and suitable for play, bar directly under the posts where the f**king idiot of a local goalie would stand and scuff the ground until there was no grass - then blame the rugby players for the damage.

    Scrums in the damaged area were moved to prevent further damage, but if there had been rain in the previous days, the damaged area would be ok for most of the match but would eventually degrade to slippery. Good enough to play on, but the action of placing the non-kicking foot during a place kick was unsafe (IMO). If a mark was made in the area, moving the kick further back would mean it was out of range for almost all teams and would need it to be moved from around 22 out to 33-35 out to reach a non-slippery part. When I refereed there I would discuss the issue pre-match with the captains who had zero issue with allowing a mark to be made 3 m closer to the sideline to get out of the area without resulting in a kick from 15m behind the mark.

    If this was wrong, then fine, but I'd prefer to be considered as acting with some empathy than rigidly applying laws - after all, isn't the majority of L2 refereeing courses aimed at having some empathy for the game?
    Obviously of you have discussed and agreed with captain's pre match, then any issue disappears

  9. #29

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    Default Re: Place of Conversion kick

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_NL View Post
    The discussion was a conversion, not a PK, so there is no mark, the player may choose anywhere in line with the place the ball was touched down. A PK I'd be less flexible on, because you're not required to kick for goal.
    So you would drop the PK mark in the middle of a crappy bit of ground knowing that the kicker has to land in a slippery area if they want a shot or be realistic and move across slightly to clear it and give them all the options that awarding a PK comes with? How often in the sticks do you get the exact location of infringement when dealing with an offside in the back line or finding exactly where the ball bounced when there was a late hit on the kicker? If we accept that in these cases that a couple of metres isn't going to matter too much or be noticed - why not allow a small amount of freedom in moving a mark or the conversion line to avoid it?

    I'm not a kicker but moving out towards the touch line vs closer along the conversion line would arguably make for a harder kick as it increases the total travel distance while slightly reducing apparent opening size. Moving forward would shorten the distance while also making the apparent opening size smaller.

  10. #30

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    Default Re: Place of Conversion kick

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    We move scrums away from muddy patches for safety grounds. Can't really think of a safety issue for moving a kick. I'd allow forward or back, but not side to side. What if the try was right in the corner, would you allow the kick to be take further in-field, if not then there's a consistency issue there.
    The kicker makes their plant foot in a slippery muddy patch, plant foot doesn't plant. Could twist, could slip in any direction causing the kicker to go ass over elbows. See: Kurtley Beale's slip at the end of the first Lions test in 2013.

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