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Thread: Wales v France - Did the ref bottle it?

      
  1. #41
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    Default Re: Wales v France - Did the ref bottle it?

    Clip #1 re the knock-on.
    In case you think it's just me, Thomas Castegneide said on BBC right after they showed these clips that for him, it was definitely a yellow card and penalty try - and while of course he's not a ref, I don't think anyone would accuse him of being biased towards Wales!!

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    Default Re: Wales v France - Did the ref bottle it?

    Clip #2 re the knock-on
    Note the English pundit (Lawrence Delagllio?) saying he thinks he knows what he's doing.
    Again, not a ref, but a pro player, and no reason to favour Wales.

  3. #43

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    Default Re: Wales v France - Did the ref bottle it?


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    Default Re: Wales v France - Did the ref bottle it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    What an appropriate gif!

    As my two clips show, very much like the motion of the club towards that poor old donkey, the Blue player's arm makes a downwards chopping motion towards the ball as it is being passed.

    This would be extremely odd if it were supposedly an attempted tackle, where the arms would be going forward to wrap.

    And, as they say in the classics, at this level nothing happens by accident.

    It is mighty strange how the ref and his assistants were so quick to dismiss the possibility of a deliberate KO and didn't take the time to review all the angles.

    As these clips reveal it was a complete howler - and that's not just me saying it, it's the French and English ex-pro's as well.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Wales v France - Did the ref bottle it?

    Those are the same clips that we're shown during the match, and I stand by my original statement - it could have gone either way. The arm also continues to the wrap.

    Pundits are paid to have an opinion. If he'd been YC'ed they'd be expected to say "He was unlucky not to get away with it" too... you have two pundits who agree with you, 4 match officials who don't, and it's "clearly a howler"?

    I don't think MOs are infallible at all, they miss things, they make wrong calls, etc. They saw this, they reviewed and discussed it, they came up with a different conclusion in a borderline case. I honestly don't find anything mighty strange here.

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    Default Re: Wales v France - Did the ref bottle it?

    While I respect your opinion on the decisions and desire to get a definitive decision as Rich_NL notes, rugby is often about opinions and interpretations. TV pundits including ex senior pros are not referees (Brian Moore recognised the importance and benefit of getting qualified). Personally, I would no more ask Nigel Owen about the nuances of second-row decision-making because for all his lengthy experience it is not his area of expertise and extensive training than rely upon TV pudits to get the calls right.

    On the pitch, we have to trust the officials to get it right more often than they get it wrong, recognising everyone on the pitch makes mistakes. This respect is fundamental to the game. In this game the decisons wer made by a team of four experienced, traned experts using a rigorous decision-making process in what we recognie was a tight situation. I agree with their decision, as it seems most do on here. Time to move on.

  7. #47

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    Default Re: Wales v France - Did the ref bottle it?

    A man who relies upon ex pros to help with his refereeing decision making is destined to be wrong. A lot.

    They're there for their color, not for their accuracy. If it were accuracy we were looking for, Austin Healey would be unemployed.

    (And of course he was lowering his arms; if he'd gone straight out, it would have a YC and PT for a dangerous high tackle)
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    Default Re: Wales v France - Did the ref bottle it?

    It's clear to me that the red player has not yet passed the ball. So the obvious question here is, is it a YC to knock the ball out of a player's possession; is it even a PK?

    The only time I have ever seen it PK is when a player does so out of the hands of a SH at a ruck, but the PK has been for offside by that player.
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    Default Re: Wales v France - Did the ref bottle it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    It's clear to me that the red player has not yet passed the ball. So the obvious question here is, is it a YC to knock the ball out of a player's possession; is it even a PK?
    If, during a tackle, you accidentally knock the ball forward out of the ball carrier's hands, that is a knock on with scrum feed to ball carrier's team. So logic tells me that if you do that deliberately then it is a penalisable intentional knock on.

    But what about a rip? That is deliberate and the ball may go forward but I doubt I'd penalise it.

    So to answer Ian's question: FIIK
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    Default Re: Wales v France - Did the ref bottle it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    If, during a tackle, you accidentally knock the ball forward out of the ball carrier's hands, that is a knock on with scrum feed to ball carrier's team. So logic tells me that if you do that deliberately then it is a penalisable intentional knock on.

    But what about a rip? That is deliberate and the ball may go forward but I doubt I'd penalise it.

    So to answer Ian's question: FIIK
    I think PK'ing a NFL-style "punch" that goes forward relative to the defender is harsh, I'd probably probably rule it as a knock by the defender. We don't penalize the rip, so I don't see why this scenario would be different.

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