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Thread: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

      
  1. #21
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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    So... Here's the definition....

    When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

    The definition makes a difference between being in possession and knocking the ball forward. While he's available to tackle, he's not "in possession" for a knock-on. What I mean by that is....

    I'm running with the ball. The ball slips out of my arm/hands and I drop it (forward). Can hit anywhere on my body and still be a knock on. Hacking at the ball with my foot doesn't count. Conversely to this, I'm receiving a pass, I've knocked the ball forward but up, I'm attempting to gain possession, but this is good enough for a tackle. But the tackle Law and the knock on Law are different.

    For a knock on all that needs to happen is the ball needs to hit my hand(s) or arm(s) and go forward and hit the ground, post (inc padding) or another player. This is what happened here, put simply. The ball was knocked forward by red, the it hit blue when he played it. Like I said, if you judge it was a deliberate Knock On the PK that, if not it's 2 Knock Ons, penalise the first.

  2. #22

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    so if Red player was juggling the ball and it bounced off an in-front team mate and back into his hands ... that is play on?
    I would suggest that my learned friend write a request for Clarification to WR.

    The LotG defines 'Possession' as thus:

    Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.

    In your scenario I would give "Accidental Off-side; scrum Blue"
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  3. #23

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post

    For a knock on all that needs to happen is the ball needs to hit my hand(s) or arm(s) and go forward and hit the ground, post (inc padding) or another player. This is what happened here, put simply. The ball was knocked forward by red, the it hit blue when he played it. Like I said, if you judge it was a deliberate Knock On the PK that, if not it's 2 Knock Ons, penalise the first.[/COLOR][/FONT]
    I don't understand the logic of penalising a non-dangerous infringement that has happened after a knock-on.

    For example, White knock-on and the ball is caught by a Black player on the ground. Are you going to ping the White knock-on or the Black "playing the ball on the ground"?

    How is this different to Red knock-on in the juggle then Blue batting the ball forward?

    Or are you saying that Blue batting the ball forward CAUSED the knock-on by Red?

    All a bit Schroedinger's Cat but interesting none the less.
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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    @Dickie sorry for the confusion.

    in the OP there's 2 knock ons. First as Red 13 is attempting to gather the ball, he's knocked it forward. It becomes a knock on when Blue 13 touches the ball. Blue 13 then knocks the ball forward and is unable to regather (I'm guessing). To me this sounds like your basic 2 knock on - penalise the first one -Scrum Blue.

    Now IF the blue 13 deliberately knocks on (slaps the ball down or miles in front, with no chance to regather). Then this will trump the original knock on, so I believe the PK should then be give for the deliberate knock on.

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    @Dickie sorry for the confusion.

    in the OP there's 2 knock ons. First as Red 13 is attempting to gather the ball, he's knocked it forward. It becomes a knock on when Blue 13 touches the ball..
    Are you sure, as red never lost possession ?
    The ball was knocked out of his possession

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Are you sure, as red never lost possession ?
    The ball was knocked out of his possession

    Yes - He's knocked the ball forward and it hit an opposition player. That's in the definition of a knock on. What blue does is irrelevant at this point. There's the first knock on. He (blue), then knocks on himself. Unless you deem the 2nd knock on deliberate, you then go back to the 1st knock on as there's no advantage.

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    Yes - He's knocked the ball forward and it hit an opposition player. That's in the definition of a knock on. What blue does is irrelevant at this point. There's the first knock on. He (blue), then knocks on himself. Unless you deem the 2nd knock on deliberate, you then go back to the 1st knock on as there's no advantage.
    That is one legalistic approach. However if he is deemed to have possession, he cannot have knocked on. That makes more sesne to me.
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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    in summary we have schroedinger's possession in essence here.

    the ball is both in the process of being knocked on and being in possession at the same time.

    didds

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    in summary we have schroedinger's possession in essence here.

    the ball is both in the process of being knocked on and being in possession at the same time.

    didds
    Until the referee observes it and announces which one it is !

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    That is one legalistic approach. However if he is deemed to have possession, he cannot have knocked on. That makes more sesne to me.
    I disagree, as possession includes a player attempting to bring the ball under control. If someone clearly fumbles the ball a metre forward but would likely have regathered it had it not hit an opponent, I think most would call the knock on.

    The less-sensible aspect is in the definition of possession, which is unusual but was brought in to allow tackling.

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