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Thread: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

      
  1. #31

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    Yes - He's knocked the ball forward and it hit an opposition player. That's in the definition of a knock on. What blue does is irrelevant at this point. There's the first knock on. He (blue), then knocks on himself. Unless you deem the 2nd knock on deliberate, you then go back to the 1st knock on as there's no advantage.
    its the bit in red (pun intended) that I want to explore. For this to be true, I guess you're using this from law 7:

    Advantage ends when:

    The non-offending team commits an infringement before they have gained an advantage. The referee stops the game and applies the sanction for the first infringement. If either or both infringements are for foul play, the referee applies the appropriate sanction(s) for the offence(s)


    When the law makers wrote 'foul play' I'm sure they meant 'dangerous play' and not 'deliberately offending'. Do you not agree?
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  2. #32

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    its the bit in red (pun intended) that I want to explore. For this to be true, I guess you're using this from law 7:

    Advantage ends when:

    The non-offending team commits an infringement before they have gained an advantage. The referee stops the game and applies the sanction for the first infringement. If either or both infringements are for foul play, the referee applies the appropriate sanction(s) for the offence(s)


    When the law makers wrote 'foul play' I'm sure they meant 'dangerous play' and not 'deliberately offending'. Do you not agree?

    Why would they not have meant dangerous play OR deliberate offending?

  3. #33

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_NL View Post
    I disagree, as possession includes a player attempting to bring the ball under control. If someone clearly fumbles the ball a metre forward but would likely have regathered it had it not hit an opponent, I think most would call the knock on.

    The less-sensible aspect is in the definition of possession, which is unusual but was brought in to allow tackling.
    If a player fumbles the ball a metre forward, it has gone out of his grasp. If it then hits an opponent it is clearly a knock-on.

    However letting an opponent turn a bit of juggling into a knock-on simply by touching the ball does not make rugby sense to me.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  4. #34

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Until the referee observes it and announces which one it is !

    yup.

    Same as opening the box !

    didds

  5. #35

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_NL View Post
    Ibut was brought in to allow tackling.

    ie Tim Stimpson from 71 seconds in



    didds
    Last edited by didds; 06-03-20 at 14:03.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    its the bit in red (pun intended) that I want to explore. For this to be true, I guess you're using this from law 7:

    Advantage ends when:

    The non-offending team commits an infringement before they have gained an advantage. The referee stops the game and applies the sanction for the first infringement. If either or both infringements are for foul play, the referee applies the appropriate sanction(s) for the offence(s)


    When the law makers wrote 'foul play' I'm sure they meant 'dangerous play' and not 'deliberately offending'. Do you not agree?
    So the bit in read. If the player is in possession and juggling with the ball to actually catch it. He's going to be close to the ball, as he's free for a tackle, this makes him in possession. When the opposition player comes in to catch the ball in the air (to steal possession).

    At this point the knock on criteria is fulfilled. But if the opposition player has infringed himself deliberately then he's committed one of 2 offences himself. He's either knocked on (accidentally), in which case there's no advantage from the knock on, so you blow for the original knock on from red.

    If you believe that he'd deliberately knocked on, as red was still technically in possession and would've most likely regathered had it not been for the knock on from blue, then there's no 1st knock on but a PK offence from Blue. So you'd award the PK to red.

    This is how I interpret the Laws surrounding Knock ons, juggling possession etc.

  7. #37

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    ie Tim Stimpson from 71 seconds in



    didds
    Tim Stimpson chased a kick through and initially kneed the ball forward. It bounced awkwardly and he reached up for it with his right hand, knocking it forward again. It went to his left and he tried once more to get his hand on it. As he did so, Vos tackled him. Stimpson hit the ground, slapped down on the ball over the line, and claimed he had scored. The referee awarded a scrum for the knock-on.

    In a subsequent TV interview, Woodward reluctantly accepted that Stimpson had been in contact with the ball when he was tackled, thus making it a legal tackle.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  8. #38

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabcheif View Post
    So the bit in read. If the player is in possession and juggling with the ball to actually catch it. He's going to be close to the ball, as he's free for a tackle, this makes him in possession. When the opposition player comes in to catch the ball in the air (to steal possession).

    At this point the knock on criteria is fulfilled. But if the opposition player has infringed himself deliberately then he's committed one of 2 offences himself. He's either knocked on (accidentally), in which case there's no advantage from the knock on, so you blow for the original knock on from red.

    If you believe that he'd deliberately knocked on, as red was still technically in possession and would've most likely regathered had it not been for the knock on from blue, then there's no 1st knock on but a PK offence from Blue. So you'd award the PK to red.

    This is how I interpret the Laws surrounding Knock ons, juggling possession etc.
    In the early days, no juggling was allowed eg 1949
    A knock-on occurs when the ball, after striking the hand or arm of a player, travels in the direction of his opponents' dead ball line.

    1959 allowed some leeway
    ... provided that a movement of the ball in the player's grasp which is in the nature of a steadying or re-adjustment of the ball within his possession without loss of control is not a knock-on.


    In 1992 even more
    ... and touches the ground or another player before it is recovered by the player.


    However the laws have never tried to deal with the overlap where an opponent knocks the ball on while it is still within the grasp of the original ball player. Indeed I think that would be hard to judge, and a hard sell. If the ball has gone outside the player's reach the situation is much more tractable.

    Why make things harder for everyone by an inappropriate legalistic interpretation? Equity rules OK.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  9. #39

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jz558 View Post
    Why would they not have meant dangerous play OR deliberate offending?
    Red are offside at a ruck and ref calls advantage to Blue. Blue SH decides he wants the PK so deliberately knocks the ball forward at base of ruck. Restart?

    Red knock on in general play and ball is intentionally caught by Blue player who is on the ground and refuses to release it to an on-side Red player. Restart?

    Red winger dives for the corner for a try but knocks the ball on. As the ball is bouncing in-goal, a Blue defender intentionally bats the ball with his hand over the deadball line. Restart?
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  10. #40

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    Default Re: Whose knock-on is it anyway ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Red are offside at a ruck and ref calls advantage to Blue. Blue SH decides he wants the PK so deliberately knocks the ball forward at base of ruck. Restart?

    Red knock on in general play and ball is intentionally caught by Blue player who is on the ground and refuses to release it to an on-side Red player. Restart?

    Red winger dives for the corner for a try but knocks the ball on. As the ball is bouncing in-goal, a Blue defender intentionally bats the ball with his hand over the deadball line. Restart?
    Pk to blue (9 don't do that ..)
    Scrum to blue
    Scrum to blue

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