Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 69

Thread: [6N] Eddie Jones Post Match Comments

      
  1. #31

    Referees in England
    chbg's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    D&WRURS, HRURS & ARURS
    Grade
    Level 8
    Join Date
    15 May 09
    Posts
    1,028
    Thanks (Received)
    30
    Likes (Received)
    188

    Default Re: [6N] Eddie Jones Post Match Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Or BOK actually did a decent management job and changed the behaviour. The general behaviour was terrible in the first half and less terrible in the second
    Thanks. I missed the first half.
    Be reasonable - do it my way.

  2. #32

    Referees in Australia
    Dickie E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    VRRA
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    19 Jan 07
    Posts
    12,666
    Thanks (Received)
    120
    Likes (Received)
    1438

    Default Re: [6N] Eddie Jones Post Match Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    In my post 24 ..

    I do see what you mean I may be wrong but Kaplan says the same thing, and I am also seeing the same view on other forums

    For me it makes sense , when the ball carrier dips a tackle that would otherwise be legal, becomes illegal

    A shoulder charge is illegal to start with (ie even if there is no dip it's still illegal)
    a shoulder to head starts at red. But mitigation may be applied. Here's a great educational video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dMSSNNeoHs
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  3. #33

    Promises to Referee in France
    L'irlandais's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    CT Alsace-Lorraine
    Grade
    EdR + LCA
    Join Date
    11 May 10
    Posts
    4,580
    Thanks (Received)
    50
    Likes (Received)
    256

    Arrow Re: [6N] Eddie Jones Post Match Comments

    I think crossref is right. (Unless I am missing the subtlety of the argument.)
    Note: the head’s first movement is back in a head-contact tackle or head-contact shoulder charge, and forward in a ‘body-contact’ tackle or ‘body-contact’ shoulder charge

    IF SHOULDER CHARGE or HIGH TACKLE:

    Was there ball carrier head/neck contact?
    What is the degree of danger – high or low?
    Are there clear and obvious mitigating factors?*
    * For mitigation, only one reduction in sanction can apply, irrespective of the number of mitigating factors present

    The graphic then should the logic. Shoulder charge. Head/Neck contact
    Yes = Red Card
    No = Carries on down the logic tree.
    So for me. Was it a shoulder charge? Yes was there head/neck contact ? Yes implies correct decision, referee has no choice under the mitigating factors framework. See the WR pge linked in your #23 for the official position.
    Shoulder charge (no arms tackle) to the head or neck of the ball carrier, and mitigation is not applied. = Red
    Shoulder charge to the body (no head or neck contact), with high degree of danger. = Yellow card
    Shoulder charge to the body (no head or neck contact), with low degree of danger. = Penalty only

    Was there head/neck contact? If yes, then no mitigation is considered.
    What am I missing ?

    The linked video is the High Tackle framework, which as crossref said is different. A tackle is legal, and so mitigation can be applied if the Ball carrier slips into a legal tackle. A shoulder charge is illegal, so the only consideration is as to how dangerous it turns out. Head contact with the shoulder is dangerous, so automatically a red card.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 08-03-20 at 10:03.
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
    John Henry Newman

  4. #34
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    Yet to join
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    08 Oct 11
    Posts
    200
    Thanks (Received)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    24

    Default Re: [6N] Eddie Jones Post Match Comments

    Eddie Jones calling as playing against 16 men out of order but his rationale on the tackle is spot on.

    Taking into account that GN dropped as if hit by a sniper, a great tackle from Henry Slade btw, then the target has changed massively in the smallest fraction of a second. If GN had carried on running upright then it is very probable that MT would have had a full wrap and smother tackle into touch.

    As it was he has adjusted, possibly brought his arm down so that he didn't wrap around the head, but given the proximity, and real time to adjust he was not able to avoid any contact.

    There are many such collisions in every game. You set up a tackle and your team mate smashes the opponent into a very different position to where you had set up to tackle. In the middle of the pitch these do not get the attention. If we stopped and forensically inspected all contact areas we would very quickly end up with 2 a-side

    Eng v Ireland it wasn't the the tackle that was missed on Johnny May after his kick ahead but the no-arms charge to a player running in a normal upright position. Not even a penalty

    As always different game, different ref, different interpretation of very basic foul play laws

  5. #35

    Promises to Referee in France
    L'irlandais's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    CT Alsace-Lorraine
    Grade
    EdR + LCA
    Join Date
    11 May 10
    Posts
    4,580
    Thanks (Received)
    50
    Likes (Received)
    256

    Default Re: [6N] Eddie Jones Post Match Comments

    I agree with you. However, we had better start writing a 2-a-side variation to the LoTG right away then; because the media fueled forensic approach doesn’t look like it’s going away any day soon.
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
    John Henry Newman

  6. #36

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    18,419
    Thanks (Received)
    162
    Likes (Received)
    1924

    Default Re: [6N] Eddie Jones Post Match Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by BikingBud View Post
    Eddie Jones calling as playing against 16 men out of order but his rationale on the tackle is spot on.

    Taking into account that GN dropped as if hit by a sniper, a great tackle from Henry Slade btw, then the target has changed massively in the smallest fraction of a second. If GN had carried on running upright then it is very probable that MT would have had a full wrap and smother tackle into touch.

    As it was he has adjusted, possibly brought his arm down so that he didn't wrap around the head, but given the proximity, and real time to adjust he was not able to avoid any contact.

    There are many such collisions in every game. You set up a tackle and your team mate smashes the opponent into a very different position to where you had set up to tackle. In the middle of the pitch these do not get the attention. If we stopped and forensically inspected all contact areas we would very quickly end up with 2 a-side

    Eng v Ireland it wasn't the the tackle that was missed on Johnny May after his kick ahead but the no-arms charge to a player running in a normal upright position. Not even a penalty

    As always different game, different ref, different interpretation of very basic foul play laws
    He had his right arm tucked behind him... Whatever GN did it was always going to be a shoulder charge, NOT, a tackle

  7. #37

    Referees in Australia
    Dickie E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    VRRA
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    19 Jan 07
    Posts
    12,666
    Thanks (Received)
    120
    Likes (Received)
    1438

    Default Re: [6N] Eddie Jones Post Match Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by BikingBud View Post
    As always different game, different ref, different interpretation of very basic foul play laws
    England fans should at least be grateful the incident happened in the last 5 minutes and not the first 5 minutes.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  8. #38

    Referees in Australia
    Dickie E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    VRRA
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    19 Jan 07
    Posts
    12,666
    Thanks (Received)
    120
    Likes (Received)
    1438

    Default Re: [6N] Eddie Jones Post Match Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    He had his right arm tucked behind him... Whatever GN did it was always going to be a shoulder charge, NOT, a tackle
    Indeed ... but still subject to mitigation
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  9. #39
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    Yet to join
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    08 Oct 11
    Posts
    200
    Thanks (Received)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    24

    Default Re: [6N] Eddie Jones Post Match Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    He had his right arm tucked behind him... Whatever GN did it was always going to be a shoulder charge, NOT, a tackle
    So if we are getting forensic and frame by frame when did MT's arm move back? How long does it take to move an arm down and back from an up and wrapping position or more to the point from a running position to a wrapping position as he was approaching the tackle? He maybe thought he had 1/2 second still to hit.

    But the target perspective, height, speed and closing rates all changed. At what rate was GN dropping? Time from upright to falling?

    You might wish to consider the tables that used to be on the back of the highway code, you know thinking time, reaction time, total stopping time etc. Also remember that anything less than 0.1 second is considered to be a false start in most high level sporting events or check this out: https://backyardbrains.com/experimen..._Exp3_Pic4.jpg

    To contextualise some of the factors, bear in mind the ball is on a steady trajectory not the rapidly changing target trajectory that GN presented.

    Rugby is a contact sport and collisions occur!

  10. #40
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    Yet to join
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    08 Oct 11
    Posts
    200
    Thanks (Received)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    24

    Default Re: [6N] Eddie Jones Post Match Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    England fans should at least be grateful the incident happened in the last 5 minutes and not the first 5 minutes.

    That's interesting because there are many decisions that could occur anywhere in the game but on the basis that all are random events and as such none will affect the next event pre-supposing that it will change the outcome doesn't seem correct to me. See Elliot Daly or Sam Warburton events.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •