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Thread: a few new boy questions

      
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    Question a few new boy questions

    Without live rugby to distract me I finally got round to the preliminaries before I can do the ref course and join you illustrious people. The courses raised one or ten questions which I'm hoping one of you rugby-starved gurus might be willing to answer for me. They are a bit mixed between laws and practice; for laws, obvs law refs would be appreciated. I'm going to post them in batches so we don't get confused

    Batch 1 in no particular order:

    1. How does the contested-to-uncontested-scrums switch work? Am I right that at the time of losing a front row player (whether red/yellow or replacement) the ref asks if that is going to make scrums uncontested; or do you do this at the next scrum? Once a switch is made to keep scrums contestable does that player stay on the field or swap back again like a blood replacement? And if a red card would result in uncontested can (do they have to) the team nominate a sacrificial lamb to take the red instead?
    2. How does U19s scrums work law 19.6: it seems to suggest that you reduce scrum numbers by 1 per player off field, even if it's a back who has been dismissed? And do you then go back to 8 in the scrum if they are uncontested?
    3. Law 8.3 seems clear that penalty try produces a card. Is this what you habitually do, even for offences that might not normally be a card?


    thanks!

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    Default Re: a few new boy questions

    Hi Andrew , welcome to the dark side

    keeping it really simple

    1a - deal with it at the next scrum (if there is one) Any forced switch they have to do is reversible

    1b - after RC that causes uncontested scrums you will be left with 14 players. No sacrifical lambs (but this is different in elite rugby)

    2 - uncontested scrums are always 8v8 at every level (it's a new Law).
    In u19 and below contested scrums are always even (ie 7v7 or 8v8 etc)

    3 - Yes a PT is almost always a card (but this is subtle one with some whatabouts that a brand new ref doesn't need to worry about. Give a card)
    Last edited by crossref; 3 Weeks Ago at 16:05.

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    Default Re: a few new boy questions

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewR View Post
    Without live rugby to distract me I finally got round to the preliminaries before I can do the ref course and join you illustrious people. The courses raised one or ten questions which I'm hoping one of you rugby-starved gurus might be willing to answer for me. They are a bit mixed between laws and practice; for laws, obvs law refs would be appreciated. I'm going to post them in batches so we don't get confused

    Batch 1 in no particular order:

    1. How does the contested-to-uncontested-scrums switch work? Am I right that at the time of losing a front row player (whether red/yellow or replacement) the ref asks if that is going to make scrums uncontested; or do you do this at the next scrum? Once a switch is made to keep scrums contestable does that player stay on the field or swap back again like a blood replacement? And if a red card would result in uncontested can (do they have to) the team nominate a sacrificial lamb to take the red instead? Generally at the next scrum the opposition are informed that the ensuing scrums are uncontested. Often they will already have deduced this to the be the case. Take the opportunity to remind the forwards that they are still required to bind and that whosoever has the put in must win the scrum. Whether the player stays on the FoP (Field of Play) will depend upon the reason for him/her coming onto the FoP. If you show a Red Card it is to the player and the team cannot select a "sacrificial lamb"
    2. How does U19s scrums work law 19.6: it seems to suggest that you reduce scrum numbers by 1 per player off field, even if it's a back who has been dismissed? And do you then go back to 8 in the scrum if they are uncontested? Scrum numbers have to be matched at 'age grade' levels; so if Blue have a forward shown a yellow card then the opposition have to reduce their pack by one and the formation of the scrum is 3-4 (as opposed to 3-4-1) as there cannot be a #8. If it is a back that gets shown a YC then scrums remain at full strength
    3. Law 8.3 seems clear that penalty try produces a card. Is this what you habitually do, even for offences that might not normally be a card? Not always. Mostly but if there is no clear miscreant then you can't guess.


    thanks!
    Hello AndrewR and welcome to this little corner of the internet. You will find that there are no egos here and referees and assessors/coaches of many levels and from throughout the world. Whilst we may not always agree on every detail we do all have a love and understanding of this beautiful game.

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    Default Re: a few new boy questions

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post

    1a - deal with it at the next scrum (if there is one) Any forced switch they have to do is reversible
    thanks v much. quick follow up on the above: does the switch back happen like a blood replacement ie at a subsequent stoppage, rather than in live play?

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    Default Re: a few new boy questions

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewR View Post
    thanks v much. quick follow up on the above: does the switch back happen like a blood replacement ie at a subsequent stoppage, rather than in live play?
    the switch back would happen when the YC ended


    (Note there are complications and pitfalls here, if the switch is made at the wrong time (before they need to) then it counts as a normal replacement and isn't reversible, and other pitfalls, like people becoming injured during the YC, or another YC etc etc)

    But keep it simple
    YC - prop leaves field
    Next scrum : do you have a replacement prop, if so any uninjured prop can come on now, and someone else goes off)
    YC ends, everything is reversed (assuning they want to) and back to 15

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    Default Re: a few new boy questions

    Thanks. Sorry can I just make sure I'm clear on this?

    scenario 1:
    LH Tom gets YC and goes off.
    Scrum: "have you got another prop"..."yes, Bob's on the bench"
    Replacement Bob comes on and stays on; another player Alex goes off
    YC ends: Tom comes back on, and Bob goes off/Alex on (unless they want to keep the replacement)

    scenario 2:
    LH Tom gets YC and goes off.
    Scrum: "have you got another prop"..."No, only Tom"
    So then Tom comes back on and Alex goes off... OR does ref have to order uncontested scrums for duration of YC

    scenario 3:
    Tom gets RC
    Scrum: "have you got another prop"..."No, only Tom"
    So then Tom comes back on and Alex goes off... OR does ref have to order uncontested scrums for rest of game?

    thanks

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    Default Re: a few new boy questions

    1 - yes
    2 & 3 uncontested scrums for the duration of YC / for duration of game

    (there are possilbe complications depending upon competition rules that could lead to competition-specific sanctions if unable to replace a prop at first time of asking... )

    but it's always true that

    - YC player do NOT come back on until YC expired
    - RC player NEVER come back on

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    Default Re: a few new boy questions

    that's clear, thanks.

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    Default Re: a few new boy questions

    Quote Originally Posted by beckett50 View Post
    Take the opportunity to remind the forwards that they are still required to bind and that whosoever has the put in must win the scrum
    This, plus I find it's helpful to remind them that #8 can pick up.

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    Default Re: a few new boy questions

    that's very kind of you woody. Frankly if they dont know something as simple as that then they deserve to end up not doing it.

    didds

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