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Thread: Knock on ?

      
  1. #11
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    Default Re: Knock on ?

    If a player drops the ball in the act of scoring it is inevitably given as a knock on.
    Hobody tires to do complex trig to say that it actually went half a millimetre backwards.
    So to me this is a clear knock on.
    So if I was assessing I would start by asking the team to explain this decision.

  2. #12

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    Default Re: Knock on ?

    Question: did he fumble the ball. Yes
    If a player fumbles the ball but catches it before it has hit the ground or another player, it is not a knock-on.

    Question: did he catch the fumbled ball before it hit the ground ? No.

    The player loses control of the ball over 12m from the tryline. Red 14 recovered the ball with a favourable bounce 7m from the tryline. It’s not rocket science either, the ball is lost forward when it travels toward the opposition’s deadball line. 5 meters is forward by a pretty long margin.
    Match referee Ben O'Keeffe, after consultation with TMO Glenn Newman...
    Howler is the expression being used in the media.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 05-08-20 at 17:08.
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  3. #13

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    Default Re: Knock on ?

    I am assuming that the TMO and ref applied 11.4 and then the fact that he played the ball backwards.
    I’m not saying it was right, but as my previous post suggests, I can understand and support the argument in law. A knock-on would be an easier ‘sell’. - But then I can also argue that he did not knock-on because his last act was to knock it back. I can support the point that having propelled the ball backwards, where the ball lands is not material.

    It could all come down to whether you are looking for reasons to award a try or reasons to penalise. I would suggest that at the top end you are under a bit more pressure for several far reaching and complex reasons to do the former.

  4. #14

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    Default Re: Knock on ?

    Look at definitions; the player lost possession AND the ball went forward = Knock on.

    Unless we get a better definition that is a knock on.
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  5. #15

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    Arrow Re: Knock on ?

    11.4 was the other controversial decision of that match. But that was when a failed interception was penalized as a deliberate knock on.
    The other contentious call came just before halftime, when Chiefs winger Shaun Stevenson was sin-binned for a deliberate knock down, and the Crusaders subsequently scored from a lineout drive
    For this particular incident the discussion between the two was as follows.
    Asked for his assessment on whether he thought the try would be awarded, Robertson, a man not normally short on words, had just one. “Yes,” he said.

    Pressed on why he was so confident that was the correct ruling, he replied:
    It came backwards out of his hand.. (His decision to award the try is based on this erroneous basis.)

    “Are you questioning it?
    I think Ian is right, he is incorrectly mixing it up with the momentum ruling. ie. It was not a forward pass. We can all agree on that, it wasn’t, but it was lost forward. In Law 11 the fact the player tried to slap it back after he lost control (fumbled) is irrelevant. Zero mention of that concept under 11.5 Exceptions to the rule.

    Poor decision, we are all human, we’ve all made them. The difference is Pro refs need to hold their hands up more and say «*Oops I got that wrong.*»
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 05-08-20 at 19:08.
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  6. #16

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    Default Re: Knock on ?

    The counter-argument against the knocked back stance is that he did momentarily collect the ball and then lost it forward before knocking it back. We can then apply the same principle as we would when ig is lost forward and the the player kicks the ball before it hits the ground. This is recognised as a knock on, so we can say it was lost forward before it was played.
    The only difference between the kick and the knock back is that with the kick the ball invariably goes further forward rather than back. Both ‘reactions’ could be seen as equally skilful?

  7. #17

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    Default Re: Knock on ?

    Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

    Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.

    Therefore he was 'in possession' of the ball (attempting to bring it under control) until the last action of knocking it backwards.

    An explanation of the correct application of Law in this instance would be helpful to the whole rugby community.
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  8. #18

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    Default Re: Knock on ?

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    11.4 was the other controversial decision of that match. But that was when a failed interception was penalized as a deliberate knock on

    The other contentious call came just before halftime, when Chiefs winger Shaun Stevenson was sin-binned for a deliberate knock down, and the Crusaders subsequently scored from a lineout drive

    Well, that one was a pretty straightforward decision (see the first few seconds of this video)

    https://media.stuff.co.nz/video/prod...478-MASTER.mp4

    Shaun Stevenson slapped the ball down when there was an overlap outside him only 25m from his own goal-line - stone cold YC in my book.
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 06-08-20 at 01:08.
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  9. #19

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    Default Re: Knock on ?

    Some one will need to explain that to Warren Gatland then.
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  10. #20

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    Default Re: Knock on ?

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    Some one will need to explain that to Warren Gatland then.
    Really. I thought Gats did a really good job of explaining it to himself...
    The other contentious call came just before halftime, when Chiefs winger Shaun Stevenson was sin-binned for a deliberate knock down, and the Crusaders subsequently scored from a lineout drive, though Gatland was happy enough with the harsh, but seemingly technically correct, call.


    “I think he’s gone for the intercept, but then you could see the hand there, it’s not up. If you go for the intercept you’ve really got to commit to it, or make the tackle. I don’t have any problems with that decision.
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