discipline & requisit sanction

[backrow]

Guys, some ideas please, I am attending a discipline meeting on Sunday for U14 offence and would like a few ideas of the sanction that you feel would be appropriate. I'm sure that some of you will have sat on committees before.

U14 game broke down into a general melee and fight, when a none playing & non repacement member of the squad, ran onto the field a kicked an opposition player who had already been punched to the ground from behind.

The club have a number of witnesses to the incident inlcuding former refs, the offence isn't in question, just waht sanction to apply.

If this were a playing or replacement member of the match day squad I would look at RFU guidelines, but want to get an idea of how much more severe or not I should be looking at the issue as the offender was not in the matchday squad.

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

when a none playing & non repacement member of the squad, ran onto the field

This is one person - correct?

I have never attended a disciplinary meeting (as far as Rugby goes -plenty at work - not me I hasten to add) so will not offer views. I am just trying to get my head around the meeting etc.

Is this incident being dealt with internally by the club in question?

Is the club attending a Society/Federation disciplinary hearing?

[backrow]

when a none playing & non repacement member of the squad, ran onto the field


This is one person - correct?

Lee, More than 1 person on field including parents some of which have already been banished from club, but the specific incident I am interested in is the 1 none playing member. Other people came onto the pitch prior to the kick and were involved in other incidents, that have or are being dealt with.

Club have referd overall situation to CB, but are dealing with this incident in house (at present). I have a feeling that this is under instruction from CB but cant be sure as not involved at that level.

Match was handled by ex level 9 society ref (still active but not in society as can't commit full time), who abandonded the game after the incident(s).

I know its difficult to view this in isolation but want a feel for the possable sanction for a none playing member entering field of play and committing a serious foul play offence, (but it can't be foul play as he wasn't involved as a player or replacement).

[Dixie]

Backrow, I very much hope the CB will keep out of this. The culprit should be viewed as what he was - a spectator on the day. The club has to answer to the CB for failing to control its crowd, and the only reason to do something about this individual must be to set out its stall as to what it expects from club members who watch club matches.

Had this been a non-member of the same age, I suspect (if it's not public land) you would ban him from entering the grounds again - perhaps indefinitely. Should you treat a member more or less firmly? On the one hand, his friendship with the players explains his willingness to get involved on their behalf; on the other, that might have been true of any errant non-member too, and a member can be expected to have a greater understanding of the discipline required in rugby.

Take away the point about setting an example for future conduct, and I see no value in dealing so harshly with this lad that his relationship with the club ends. Rugby can and should be a positive influence in his future years. Does the need to set an example outweigh the boy's interests?

Personally, I say no. I think the very act of bing in front of a disciplinary, surely with his parents there as well (make sure that happens), and being made aware of how he has let down his team, his coaches, his club, his parents and himself is IMO punishment enough as far as the boy is concerned. As far as setting an example pour encourager les autres, I think he should be given the responsibility for all of next season to ensure that the home pitch is roped off at every game, and when not playing, he himself is responsible for asking everyone except the coaches to stay behind the rope on his team's side. This will get him down to the club early on a Sunday morning (itself a huge penalty), and will give him some insight into the idea of responsibility, not only for his own actions but that of others.

[Dickie E]

so we're talking about a 13 year old kid, right?

[Simon Thomas]

Backrow - are you attending as chair of discipline committee, member of discipline committee, a witness or non-particpating spectator ?

from RFU Regs 6.4 Natural Justice and Fairness

6.4.1 The overriding consideration in the conduct of disciplinary procedures are that they should be fair and just.

6.4.2 It must always be borne in mind that a Disciplinary Panel is not a court of law and those appearing before it may not be trained advocates and must therefore in the interests of achieving a just and fair result be given every assistance and latitude in presenting their submissions. All procedural and technical considerations must take second place to the paramount object of being as just and fair to all parties as is consistent with a duty to the Game. The Disciplinary Panel must at all times observe the rules of natural justice.


It should be the Chair of the Club Discipline Committee that runs the meeting, that makes sure the evidence is heard without argument or interruption, that a full defence statement is made (again without argument or interruption), that the Committee ask relevant questions where there is conflict of evidence, confusion or extra information needed, and so on. The Committee assesses the evidence & offence, and makes their judgement based on balance of probabilty. "The standard of proof in disciplinary cases is the balance of probabilities and not, as in a criminal court, beyond reasonable doubt. The balance of probabilities means that, having heard all the evidence and using their experience in the Game to help them to decide what was most likely to have occurred in the circumstances before them, the Disciplinary Panel believes that it is more likely than not that the offence is proved."
If guilty they then they discuss the sanction(s) - asks for mitigation (+ve apology, no previous history, etc or -ve past bad behaviour). He / she should also have all reference materials, how to run a RFU Disciplinary Meeting, how to apply the RFU Regs for Youth members, etc. It should be run on a very formal basis, cutting out parental shouting, etc. The Club CWO should be in attendance throughout. The defendent must be there (with parent or guardian) and if a no show the hearing should be adjourned.

From the description this is a Club Discipline issue, not a match playing dismissal as you say, but a Reg 5.12 offence.

By all means use the IRB/Sanctions for dismissal as a guideline, but also consider the act committed, that it was by a non-playing club member entering the playing area, an unprovoked attack on a previously punched player who was on the ground. Personally I would rank this way above any foul play attack / punch / kick in a match situation. From the description given I would start thinking at the higest sanction level which is dismissal from the club and a total playing ban for life. Becoming more realistic and taking into account the age of the alleged offender, you need to look at a more pro-active & "inclusive" set of sanctions to help the child overcome his behaviour and recognise just how serious and unacceptable it was.

imho a playing ban next season is mandatory (perhaps 4-6 weeks), but also so are 'club / community activities' to make him understand his worth and the benefit of the club and teamates, etc and clearly set the lines of acceptable behaviour.

But it is important that the player assaulted also needs to feel justice has been done.

If there was a general melee and fight both clubs U14 teams, coaches and management should be up in front of their respective Junior Committees, as well.

I would also be asking for formal advice from my County Union's (CB) Discipline Committee on both the specific non-playing offender and the overall nt.

I would have also expected police action to be considered against the attacker.

[backrow]

Dixie :- CB already involved due to match being abandond, thanks for your points will bear in mind.

DickiE: - Yes

Simon T:- As a panel member, Cair runs meeting with CWo and parents etc in attendance, all parties get to put thier point of view across.

I am asked as a recently retired (mid season due to injury) L9 going to L8 for advice on Law and suitable sanction, the sanction is discussed by commitee and agreed on.

Incident was view by numerous witnesses incldung a couple of former society refs.

IMHo I view the offence as much higher than if committed by an actual player.

Opposition club aware fo situation and seem ok for us to deal with it.

Both clubs have been before CB but I dont know the results.

Match was handled by an ex L9 ref who is still active in club matches and is very experienced in junior rugby hadling any games from U13 - U16.

[Simon Thomas]

Not sure what formal relevance a referee from wherever has in this case at all, except for the man in the middle on the day, as a witness to these non-player's offences.

As a Society Referee I would not get involved in any way as an adviser to the Club Disciplinary Committee, as it is not a dismissal offence. Even if it was a dismissal offence, the club guys involved can read the RFU handbook as well as you can.

Club should discuss with CB Discipline Chairman and no one else.

[backrow]

Not sure what formal relevance a referee from wherever has in this case at all, except for the man in the middle on the day, as a witness to these non-player's offences.

As a Society Referee I would not get involved in any way as an adviser to the Club Disciplinary Committee, as it is not a dismissal offence. Even if it was a dismissal offence, the club guys involved can read the RFU handbook as well as you can.

Club should discuss with CB Discipline Chairman and no one else.

SimonT - I am de-facto member of the clubs M&J disciplinary committee. Incident has been discussed with CB and referd back to the club to deal with.

[backrow]

Quick update and thanks to all for advice offered.

The guilty party was given a 3 match ban to start next season as the kick was deemed as mid level offence as it was not particularly strong or violent, and with mitigation of full remorse, written apology to club and others, the fact that the offender claimed (claim supported by witness statements) to be defending another player, this was reduced to 2 matches.

In addition a 3 match suspended ban was given to take into account that as a none playing/substitute he should not have been on the field at all. This suspended ban will be inplace for the whole of the 09/10 season.
The offender in his letter of apology had volunteered to carry out work at the club over the off season, this was accepted, also he will assist in preparing playing area when he is not playing.