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manager
25-02-13, 18:02
Forgive me - it's been a long time since I played sevens (or rugby for that matter). We used to use a lineout move where the forwards back-peddled and the hooker threw straight to an incoming scrum-half. Is this still allowed?

OB..
25-02-13, 18:02
There are no Sevens-specific variations to Law 19. The receiver cannot come into the line until the ball has left the thrower's hands. Until then he has to be 2 metres back.

Welcome to the forum. (I am intrigued that you joined almost 2 years ago, and this is your first post - but no problem. Keep them coming.)

manager
25-02-13, 18:02
Ah he'd have to be pretty quick then! Can this actually be achieved?

Yes I think I joined at the time the RFU forums suddenly disappeared into thin air.

Dixie
25-02-13, 20:02
Ah he'd have to be pretty quick then! Can this actually be achieved? I think most of us take the view that it is unlikely that the receiver can join the line at numbers 1-4 (measured with a full 7-man lineout) without having jumped the gun. But if you manage to get Usain Bolt to play for you, you might buck that trend! Also, 7's refs tend to be a bit more lenient in my experience - it's worth trying it on in a non-kickable position early doors to see if you can get away with it.

ctrainor
25-02-13, 20:02
If you lob the throw it would be possible if the others in the Line out were right on the 15 line.
A legal way it could be done is if you are in the line and Peel forwards.

manager
25-02-13, 20:02
If you lob the throw it would be possible if the others in the Line out were right on the 15 line.
A legal way it could be done is if you are in the line and Peel forwards.

Yes a lob would do it...but it also relies on the opposition following your line's dummy movement to create the gap at the front. I'm talking 7's now. Thanks.

Not Kurt Weaver
25-02-13, 21:02
The video http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=19 on the irb site shows the very exact move described by the
OP and the following FK

Confusion certainly comes from the exception printed in the very same law that forbids this move.

Davet
25-02-13, 22:02
NKW - quite ; for my money the US guidelines which I understand allow this move are correct if one takes the Law as writ, sadly the iRB seem to want to deny their own exception, and they have ruled against it...

crossref
25-02-13, 23:02
I don't understand this. If the video contradicts he written laws, shouldn't we take the written laws as correct?

After all the law book doesn't come with video

manager
25-02-13, 23:02
The video http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=19 on the irb site shows the very exact move described by the
OP and the following FK

Confusion certainly comes from the exception printed in the very same law that forbids this move.

Sounds interesting. Which section is that? The link isn't taking me to the video.

L'irlandais
25-02-13, 23:02
Sounds interesting. Which section is that? The link isn't taking me to the video.Hi manager,

The IRFU requested a Ruling related to the lineout a few years ago.
See Clarification 9 2009 (http://www.irblaws.com/?domain=10&clarlaw=19&clarification=4) for details :

Q. Do the provisions of Law 19.8 (i) apply to Law 19.11 Exception 2?

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
A. The provisions of Law 19.8(i) do apply to Exception 2 in Law 19.11 which means that a receiver cannot run into a gap in the lineout until the ball has left the hands of the player throwing in. refer to Lawbook19.8 (i)
Where the receiver must stand. The receiver must stand at least 2 metres towards that player’s goal line from that player’s team-mates who are lineout players and between 5 and 15 metres from the touchline until the lineout begins.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line
Exception: The receiver may run into the gap and perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout. The receiver is liable to sanction for offences in the lineout as would be other players in the lineout.Hope this clears up the issue.

ChrisR
25-02-13, 23:02
Manager,

The laws allow players to change position so you can pull this stunt in one of two ways.

1. Have the back of the pod drop out of the LO so the SH can step into the LO at the front.

2. Simply have the back player drop and run to the front.

I'm not saying these are effective ploys but they stay within the law.

crossref
25-02-13, 23:02
Sounds interesting. Which section is that? The link isn't taking me to the video.Hi manager,

The IRFU requested a Ruling related to the lineout a few years ago.
See Clarification 9 2009 (http://www.irblaws.com/?domain=10&clarlaw=19&clarification=4) for details :

Q. Do the provisions of Law 19.8 (i) apply to Law 19.11 Exception 2?

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
A. The provisions of Law 19.8(i) do apply to Exception 2 in Law 19.11 which means that a receiver cannot run into a gap in the lineout until the ball has left the hands of the player throwing in. refer to Lawbook19.8 (i)
Where the receiver must stand. The receiver must stand at least 2 metres towards that player’s goal line from that player’s team-mates who are lineout players and between 5 and 15 metres from the touchline until the lineout begins.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line
Exception: The receiver may run into the gap and perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout. The receiver is liable to sanction for offences in the lineout as would be other players in the lineout.Hope this clears up the issue.

I guess the law numbers have changed since then ,anyone have a 2009 law book ?

Not Kurt Weaver
26-02-13, 01:02
Sounds interesting. Which section is that? The link isn't taking me to the video.

http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=19.8 go to 19.8 i and there is a little blue camera

hope this helps if you haven't found it.

Not Kurt Weaver
26-02-13, 01:02
The IRFU requested a Ruling related to the lineout a few years ago.
See Clarification 9 2009 (http://www.irblaws.com/?domain=10&clarlaw=19&clarification=4) for details :
refer to Lawbook[laws]19.8 (i)


How do we know the clarification 9, 2009 is still valid? The 19.11 reference that held the exception has been relocated to 19.8e

It seems this clarification is obsolete despite being on irb website.

I find the receiver entering the lineout as no big deal (I'm in the US).

crossref
26-02-13, 08:02
The IRFU requested a Ruling related to the lineout a few years ago.
See Clarification 9 2009 (http://www.irblaws.com/?domain=10&clarlaw=19&clarification=4) for details :
refer to Lawbook[laws]19.8 (i)


How do we know the clarification 9, 2009 is still valid? The 19.11 reference that held the exception has been relocated to 19.8e

It seems this clarification is obsolete despite being on irb website.

I find the receiver entering the lineout as no big deal (I'm in the US).

I am with this
The clarification relates to ambiguity in the 2009 version of law 19
Law 19 has now been rewritten , so supersedes the old clarification

The law makes it very clear that the receiver CAN join the line out

the video seems to conflict, so there is a mess

Seems to me you go with the written law.

Balones
26-02-13, 10:02
What creates the confusion is that the Law doesn't clarify exactly and clearly when the receiver can join the line. By being under the section which deals with forming the line would indicate that the receiver must join the line before the ball is released from the thrower. Peeling players cannot start moving until the ball has been thrown in. Hence front peels and the receiver joining towards the front is impossible unless the ball is lobbed to a ridiculous height.

Davet
26-02-13, 10:02
2009 - 19.11 provided 2 exceptions, exception 1 allowed a player not in the lineout to run forward and take a ball that was thrown beyond the 15 - in 2009 the timing was not specified, as whether the player could run forward:
a) before the ball is thrown
b) after the ball is thrown
c) only after the ball has gone beyond the 15

in the current law that anomaly is cleared up - 19.15.c specifies "after the ball has left the hands" of the thrower.

However the second exception is not so well treated in current law


(i)
Where the receiver must stand. The receiver must stand at least 2 metres towards that player’s goal line from that player’s team-mates who are lineout players and between 5 and 15 metres from the touchline until the lineout begins.

Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

Exception: The receiver may run into the gap and perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout. The receiver is liable to sanction for offences in the lineout as would be other players in the lineout.


However given the Law specifies where the receiver must stand until the lineout begins, one wonders what the exception actually refers to. If it only applies after the lineout has begun then exactly what is being excepted?

Balones
26-02-13, 11:02
Davet
I think we've both identified the same problem.

Davet
26-02-13, 12:02
Agreed - though the main issue is that our intsructions from RFU via Society is that the ruling standsm- so that's what we do.

But - in my opinion (note I don't claim to be humble) - the ruling is asinine.

Womble
26-02-13, 12:02
If the 9 stood 9.99m away and sprinted he would be 2m from the LOT when the ball was thrown. I do enjoy thinking inside the box ;)

Davet
26-02-13, 13:02
Womble - it depends when he starts his run and when the ball is thrown.

Womble
26-02-13, 13:02
Hopefully the players are good enough to get it right with a little practice :pepper:

Davet
26-02-13, 13:02
OhhhKaaay...

So practice is - 9 stands 9.99m back and starts his run up. Hooker times his throw so that as the 9 approaches 2m away from the line the ball leaves his hands and the linout begins. The 9 - now travelling at speed - can get into the line in time to take a ball - or be a dummy for a long throw?

If he doesn't take the ball will he be in danger, down to momentum, of going through the line of touch and becoming offside before the ball is touched. If so would that offside be material?

Do our resident coaches like this notion? If he did take the ball then he would certainly be a threat, and likely to burst clear - though the lack of surprise may mean he is met with a pair of fat blokes standing in his way... so the dummy could be a good ploy... but offside problems as mentioned....?

Womble
26-02-13, 13:02
Yep, thats how it works, yes the 9 may be liable to penalty but if he were to run a curve behind the pod then he should be able to pick the space... the team may only be able to use it once or twice against the same opposition but that may be all it takes! 7s or 15 a side

crossref
26-02-13, 13:02
Agreed - though the main issue is that our intsructions from RFU via Society is that the ruling standsm- so that's what we do.
.

and those referees who joined a society after the secret email and who use the, um, Lawbook as the source of their Laws - they will ref this as per the Law as it is written.


If the RFU REALLY want to send an instruction to ignore certain Laws they should put in touchline magazine where everyone can see it (joke!)

Davet
26-02-13, 13:02
Well - I guess they would say that refs should use the law book and the various iRB clarifications together - and the clarification clearly says that the move can only take place after the lineout has begun.

There is no change in wording since that ruling - merely that some of the words have been relocated, so no reason to assume that the clarification is not current law.

OB..
26-02-13, 14:02
I guess the law numbers have changed since then ,anyone have a 2009 law book ?
Law 19.11 in 2009 was as follows:In general, a player not taking part in a lineout must stay at least 10 metres behind the line of touch, or on or behind that player’s goal line if that is nearer, until the lineout ends.
There are two exceptions to this:
[…. relates to a long throw]
Exception 2: The receiver may run into the gap and perform any of the actions available to any other player in the lineout. The receiver is liable to penalty for offences in the lineout as would be other players in the lineout.
The IRB gave the following explanation of the subsequent changes:

Move 19.11 Exception 2 to 19.8 (i)
Delete remainder of 19.11 as it is incirpoorated into the new 19.15
19.15 PLAYER THROWING IN becomes 19.11

crossref
26-02-13, 14:02
Well - I guess they would say that refs should use the law book and the various iRB clarifications together - and the clarification clearly says that the move can only take place after the lineout has begun.

There is no change in wording since that ruling - merely that some of the words have been relocated, so no reason to assume that the clarification is not current law.

bu unless you also have a 2009 law book there's no way to know that.
If what you have is what's on the IRB website and book, you have
- a 2009 clarification that refers to 2009 laws, but says one thing
- a 2013 Law that says the opposite

sigh. Anyay I think we all agree it's no ideal.

manager
26-02-13, 23:02
http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=19.8 go to 19.8 i and there is a little blue camera

hope this helps if you haven't found it.

Ah yes I see it now. Not quite the exact move. The one I meant was where the scrum half simply runs into the front of the lineout (assuming his own players have back-peddled taking the oppo with them) and receives the ball from the thrower. I didn't realise this would generate so much discussion but thanks to all!

Browner
27-02-13, 13:02
Ah he'd have to be pretty quick then! Can this actually be achieved?



pretty quick, why?

he's only 2.5m from the centre of the lineout so +
a] it the lineout isn't being 'contested' at the front ...[ie..players have drifted infield toward the 15m line]then a little 'unstraight' isn't likely 'material'
b] I can reach forward c.1m without moving my feet
c] Even I can shift forward 1.5m quicker than a ball that's lobbed 5m

go for it ...... all penalties AYORisk !


no charge for this coaching advise :smile:

Davet
27-02-13, 15:02
Browner, if your trigger is the ball leaving the throwers hands then I bet you can't move that fast if you include reaction time. If you rehearse it and get the timing agreed so that you starting to move as the ball leaves the hand coincide then maybe. But chances are you'll fool the ref too.

OB..
27-02-13, 16:02
a] it the lineout isn't being 'contested' at the front ...[ie..players have drifted infield toward the 15m line]then a little 'unstraight' isn't likely 'material'
On the contrary it is obviously material if it is what allows you to get to the ball in time.

didds
27-02-13, 17:02
hear hear for OB.

Of course its material if the oppo hasn't jumped. Maybe they haven't; jumped because they know the throw is rarely straight - so what's the point - better off having boots ion the floor to defend post squinty throw and catch and land.

didds

Ian_Cook
27-07-15, 21:07
Posts re McCaw try moved to existing discussion.