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leaguerefaus
29-11-13, 15:11
Anybody comfortable sharing what they're paid for junior matches? Curious to see how much it fluctuates between age groups and different societies.

crossref
29-11-13, 15:11
Normally it's a pint, and sometimes also a meal ticket.
Society Refs are given expenses, if they ask.

leaguerefaus
29-11-13, 15:11
Normally it's a pint, and sometimes also a meal ticket.
Society Refs are given expenses, if they ask.

They aren't paid for matches? I'm sitting here in shock...

Swiss Ref
29-11-13, 15:11
In Switzerland for U16 and U18 its forty Swiss Francs plus travelling. For School its 30 Chf

Shelflife
29-11-13, 15:11
Travel expenses, so much per km.

leaguerefaus
29-11-13, 15:11
Never knew referees got such a stiff deal in some places...
I understand we ref because we love it, but still.

Shelflife
29-11-13, 16:11
Left home last week at 11.30 45min drive, reffed two games (never again too old for that crap) got a lucozade and a cheese sandwich drove home another 45mins got home at about 6.30. got €25 in travel expenses.

No point being mad if you dont show it.

Simon Thomas
29-11-13, 16:11
6,000-7,000 club referees get paid nothing for reffing junior matches at their own clubs
In England's RFUland 5,450 Society refs get travel expenses if they claim them.
50 or so National Panel Refs get a small match fee and travel expenses
8 or so Championship / Elite refs get a slightly larger match fee, and a few are RFU employees as Development Managers or Officers.
6 or so Elite Referees are full time salaried RFU professional match officials

ckuxmann
29-11-13, 16:11
Rugby Union: Expenses, so between £5-15

Rugby League: No expenses just match based compensation (academy is different)- 1 game-£20 2-£35 3-£45

leaguerefaus
29-11-13, 16:11
No expenses for league where I am but travel is usually very minimal.

U6-11s: $20, 12s: $25, 13-14s: $35, 15-16s: $45, 17-18s: $60.

I thought I wasn't paid enough but now I'm re-evaluating that thought!

crossref
29-11-13, 16:11
6,000-7,000 club referees get paid nothing for reffing junior matches at their own clubs


in my club the coaches are expected to buy the ref a pint. This would most likely come out of their own pocket, but possibly from some age-group funds collectred by the age-group (separate from the membeship fees paid to the club)

Dixie
29-11-13, 20:11
I thought I wasn't paid enough but now I'm re-evaluating that thought! :biggrin: England (and Wales) is very different from Aus; perhaps the SH refs may care to chip in? I imagine there is a reasonable payment spectrum there -especially given the amount of time they put in on a weekend. I know Mrs Dixie would have flayed my bits if I'd suggested AR-ing for the ensuing games as well as reffing my own. There is not an amount of cash that would have compensated for putting up with her displeasure. Where do women learn how to keep glowering over imagined problems for days on end?


6,000-7,000 club referees get paid nothing for reffing junior matches at their own clubs (Sunday games)
In England's RFUland 5,450 Society refs get travel expenses if they claim them. (Saturday adult games)
50 or so National Panel Refs get a small match fee and travel expenses (Saturday adult games). It's important to remember that ST is a high-powered advertising exec on commensurate salary, so when we says "small" we can be sure the match fee is below £100,000 p.a. [Aus$180,000], but we can't be certain of much else]
8 or so Championship / Elite refs get a slightly larger match fee, and a few are RFU employees as Development Managers or Officers. (Saturday adult games)
6 or so Elite Referees are full time salaried RFU professional match officials (Saturday adult games)


in my club the coaches are expected to buy the ref a pint. This would most likely come out of their own pocket, but possibly from some age-group funds collected by the age-group (separate from the membership fees paid to the club) I've reffed age group in many clubs, and find typically that the bar staff know the referee's drink is free, and have a process for dealing with that. Notwithstanding, the home team coaches will often put their hands in their pockets for a top-up: particularly if they've won.

dave_clark
29-11-13, 20:11
in my club the coaches are expected to buy the ref a pint. This would most likely come out of their own pocket, but possibly from some age-group funds collectred by the age-group (separate from the membeship fees paid to the club)

we give a free drink to all referees (whether club or society), and most coaches will offer another. food also comes as standard.

i did have to have a quiet word the other week when they refused a 16 year old ref a free hot chocolate, but we're all friends again now.

pwhaling
30-11-13, 00:11
In New York I get $75 per game regardless of the level (high school up to mens division 1) and travel after 150 miles.

menace
30-11-13, 01:11
No expenses for league where I am but travel is usually very minimal.

U6-11s: $20, 12s: $25, 13-14s: $35, 15-16s: $45, 17-18s: $60.

I thought I wasn't paid enough but now I'm re-evaluating that thought!

You do well! Here the students get $20 flat for a junior game. Seniors only get travel allowance when they travel out of the state! And they must claim this. This is annoying as you can travel 100 km round trip for no reimbursement.

We are trying to change that as some unions around australia do pay a nominal amount to help cover costs, but it's a tough barrier to break through and it's not going well. They agree with the principle, but they cry poor all the time. They don't believe they should ask the players to pay up.

I worked out that the average referee will spend approx $60-$100 per game to be there (including equipment, unreimbursed travel costs, physio, training and development). Yet the referee development employee encourages people to join and say it's cost neutral because they get their jersey and shorts for free!:chair::chair:


we give a free drink to all referees (whether club or society), and most coaches will offer another. food also comes as standard.


Not many senior clubs do that here. They're too tight to throw you a sausage off their BBQ! If you step up to their canteen they're super quick to put their hand out and take your cash! (About half junior clubs feed and water you).

Sometimes you just feel like you're just being used! And they wonder why they find it hard to retain refs for more than 3 or 4 years. They just get jack of being screwed.

Na Madrai
30-11-13, 09:11
In the North Mids, we charge £0.40 per mile with a minimum of £3.00 and a maximum of £35 payable by the club. Should expenses be in excess of £35, the balance is claimed from the Society at Christmas and then at the end of the season. In the vast majority of clubs, the referee simple hands a chittie over the bar to receive his expenses.

In virtually all clubs, referees get free drinks and food post match and there will be frequently a free bottle of water/Lucozade etc. in the dressing room before the match. Sunday mornings, a free bacon sandwich and cup of coffee pre-match are sometimes available.



NM

Jarrod Burton
30-11-13, 09:11
A big fat $ZERO for all matches, regardless of grade, age or level. Often have to buy our own beer after the match and usually the ref will buy the first one for the AR's.

Also need to add that all matches includes seniors games. No-one gets paid in Tas.

SimonSmith
30-11-13, 14:11
$0.45 per mile
$50 for the A game, $25 for the B.

We don't vary fees by level.

KieranW
30-11-13, 23:11
I've heard some rumours that 'they' are considering introducing a payment for referees a la football (who can expect a minimum of £20-25 for junior games). Not sure how much truth/likelihood is behind this?

smeagol
01-12-13, 01:12
A-side U19, $90.
B-side U19, $55.

Travel, 40c/mile. Closest is ~60-90mi, furthest ~200 each way.

Kit purchases are either out-of-pocket or subsidized by society, then taken out of reimbursement.

menace
01-12-13, 01:12
I've heard some rumours that 'they' are considering introducing a payment for referees a la football (who can expect a minimum of £20-25 for junior games). Not sure how much truth/likelihood is behind this?

Apparently rumour going around here is that ARU are considering a national match officials payment system....but it's early days so no details as to what it will be. It appears they're finally switching the effin light bulb one to figure out they need to do something.


A-side U19, $90.
B-side U19, $55.

Travel, 40c/mile. Closest is ~60-90mi, furthest ~200 each way.

Kit purchases are either out-of-pocket or subsidized by society, then taken out of reimbursement.

A perfect system IMO that can be easily implemented to seniors too and funded by the players. You're typically talking about 40 players per game, so thats about on average $2 a player per game. If the can't afford that then they should give up that 1/2 a pint after the game!

Do you ever get any backlash from players that they have to pay you?

smeagol
01-12-13, 03:12
Apparently rumour going around here is that ARU are considering a national match officials payment system....but it's early days so no details as to what it will be. It appears they're finally switching the effin light bulb one to figure out they need to do something.



A perfect system IMO that can be easily implemented to seniors too and funded by the players. You're typically talking about 40 players per game, so thats about on average $2 a player per game. If the can't afford that then they should give up that 1/2 a pint after the game!

Do you ever get any backlash from players that they have to pay you?

I should have clarified - that is what the clubs are billed, not necessarily what refs are paid.

The way it works in my union is that the society treasurer bills the clubs at the end of the season, and the referees are paid by the society. Those who are delinquent with payments have to pay higher rates the following season, while those naughties who do not pay simply are not assigned referees.

menace
01-12-13, 04:12
Even better...those that don't want to chase it up can effectively donate it to the association! Wins all round! IMO.

The Fat
01-12-13, 05:12
I think we get $20 per junior game, $35 for U19, 3rd garde and 2nd grade seniors and $50 for 1st grade seniors but no travel allowance unless on Country Panel duty. Out of those fees the 1st grade refs lose $10, and all other refs $5 per game which goes into our referee's development fund unless you are a student ref or AR in which case you pay nothing to that fund from your match payments. ARs get $10 a game. Student refs pay $5 per year Association fees and all other referees have 2 match payments deducted as their Association fees. All match fees are paid in one cheque at the end of the season.
So for example #1: If you are a 1st grade ref who does 15 1st grade games, 7 lower grade games, AR for say 12 games and do 6 junior games in a season, you would get
15 x 50 (-15 x 10 RDF) + 7 x 35 (-7 x 5 RDF) + 12 x 10 (AR) + 6 x 20 (-6 x 5 RDF) - 2 x 50 (Assoc. fees) = 1235 - 315 = $920 for the season.

Example #2: If you are a below 1st grade ref who does 22 lower grade games, AR for say 12 games and do 6 junior games in a season, you would get
22 x 35 (-22 x 5 RDF) + 12 x 10 (AR) + 6 x 20 (-6 x 5 RDF) - 2 x 35 (Assoc. fees) = 1010 - 210 = $800 for the season.

Example #3: If you only do junior games and AR for seniors and do say 30 junior games and AR for say 20 senior games in a season, you would get
30 x 20 (-30 x 5 RDF) + 20 x 10 (AR) - 2 x 20 (Assoc. fees) = 800 - 190 = $610 for the season.

Example #4: If you are a student and only do junior games and do say 20 junior games in a season, you would get
20 x 20 - 5 (Assoc. fees) = 400 - 5 = $395 for the season.

Referee shirt, shorts and socks are provided by the association.

Obviously there is, because of the lower fees, an incentive for young referees to join up. The older blokes do it because they enjoy it and the end of year cheque is just like a xmas bonus to shout yourself some new boots, bag, whistle etc.

menace
01-12-13, 09:12
The older blokes do it because they enjoy it and the end of year cheque is just like a xmas bonus to shout yourself some new boots, bag, whistle etc.

Thanks Fat

Exactly the basis in which I'm trying to introduce it here. Nothing more really.

In my case it will act as 'hush' money for the missus (to buy a new frock and clogs!)

The Fat
01-12-13, 09:12
Thanks Fat

Exactly the basis in which I'm trying to introduce it here. Nothing more really.

In my case it will act as 'hush' money for the missus (to buy a new frock and clogs!)

It's used as incentive to turn up for a BBQ and free beer at the AGM because that's when they hand the cheques out.

Jarrod Burton
03-12-13, 04:12
Just found out that the TRU are considering paying us this year, but they did say that a couple of years running.

TigerCraig
03-12-13, 05:12
We get $25 a game from Under 10 to Under 18 paid by the society at years end. No payment for finals or representative "honour" games. There is the option to donate fees back to the society or to a club of your choice. Clubs actually get billed $15 each per game, with the $5 difference helping cover society costs.

2 match payments are withheld from us to cover part cost of the annual dinner and monthly meetings (which have pizza and beer provided)

All gear is provided.

Junior refs (under 8 & 9 games) usually get $10 a game paid by the host club.

thepercy
03-12-13, 05:12
QUOTE=pwhaling;259244]In New York I get $75 per game regardless of the level (high school up to mens division 1) and travel after 150 miles.[/QUOTE]


And nearly unlimited beer for men's matches, no beer at high school, and very rarely a pint at college games:drool:

Robert Burns
03-12-13, 06:12
No expenses for league where I am but travel is usually very minimal.

U6-11s: $20, 12s: $25, 13-14s: $35, 15-16s: $45, 17-18s: $60.

I thought I wasn't paid enough but now I'm re-evaluating that thought!

That's because you're No. 1/2 sport on the East coast (fighting with AFL), so payments are higher.


In New York I get $75 per game regardless of the level (high school up to mens division 1) and travel after 150 miles.

That's massive!


It's used as incentive to turn up for a BBQ and free beer at the AGM because that's when they hand the cheques out.

Cheques!!!!!! Has no one taught your tresurer about online banking and electronic funds transfer? I had all our refs (bar one because of wrong details) paid by end of September this year.

menace
03-12-13, 06:12
Cheques!!!!!! Has no one taught your tresurer about online banking and electronic funds transfer? I had all our refs (bar one because of wrong details) paid by end of September this year.

True...but then there would be no need to turn up to AGM! It's not a bad little carrot really if you want your payment sooner (paid to go drink free beer). I like it! (Administratively EFT still easier for all!)

menace
03-12-13, 06:12
Just found out that the TRU are considering paying us this year, but they did say that a couple of years running.

Sh!t, if small union Taswedgians can do it then every union could do it!

TigerCraig
03-12-13, 06:12
Thirteen years ago when I refereed state league soccer in South Aust I was getting $130 for reserve grade and then $65 for running touch in first grade.

Makes me laugh when I look at what I get now.

As ref coaches we also get $25 for each coaching report we write

Robert Burns
03-12-13, 06:12
Thirteen years ago when I refereed state league soccer in South Aust I was getting $130 for reserve grade and then $65 for running touch in first grade.

But most of that would be classed a danger money wouldn't it?

TigerCraig
03-12-13, 06:12
But most of that would be classed a danger money wouldn't it?

A bit - especially doing one of the "ethnic" derbies

Drift
03-12-13, 06:12
We get $30 for metropolitan games, $50 for country however $80 if the journey is more than 3 hours each way.

The Fat
03-12-13, 08:12
True...but then there would be no need to turn up to AGM! It's not a bad little carrot really if you want your payment sooner (paid to go drink free beer). I like it! (Administratively EFT still easier for all!)

Going to EFT next year. Will be interesting to see if we get enough members to next year's AGM to fill committee positions.

leaguerefaus
03-12-13, 17:12
Hearing how many of you don't get paid or get paid poorly pisses me off. Chuck $1 onto the player's weekly match fee, and there's $30+ per game.

Instead a lot of you are being taken for granted. If you all didn't turn up for a weekend, I bet they'd start a payment system pretty ****ing fast.

I understand we don't usually referee for the purpose of money, but that's no reason we should be taken for granted either.

Phil E
03-12-13, 17:12
Hearing how many of you don't get paid or get paid poorly pisses me off. Chuck $1 onto the player's weekly match fee, and there's $30+ per game.

Instead a lot of you are being taken for granted. If you all didn't turn up for a weekend, I bet they'd start a payment system pretty ****ing fast.

I understand we don't usually referee for the purpose of money, but that's no reason we should be taken for granted either.


What a jaundiced view?

The players pay to play and have fun.
I don't pay but still have fun and get reimbursed for my petrol, a couple of beers, some food and some good banter.

I am not being taken for granted, I am helping the players and the sport.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
03-12-13, 17:12
It's £200 per game for refereeing Oxford University Ladies Team matches (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2516966/Oxford-University-womens-rugby-team-pose-nude-charity-calendar.html)


























trouble is I can't afford it!

leaguerefaus
03-12-13, 18:12
What a jaundiced view?

The players pay to play and have fun.
I don't pay but still have fun and get reimbursed for my petrol, a couple of beers, some food and some good banter.

I am not being taken for granted, I am helping the players and the sport.

Not you in particular, but from what I've read, many referees end up out of pocket. Not exactly the ideal way to entice new referees into the ranks.

leaguerefaus
03-12-13, 18:12
It's £200 per game for refereeing Oxford University Ladies Team matches (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2516966/Oxford-University-womens-rugby-team-pose-nude-charity-calendar.html)
trouble is I can't afford it!

Might need some extra strapping tape that day ;)

SimonSmith
03-12-13, 18:12
What a jaundiced view?

The players pay to play and have fun.
I don't pay but still have fun and get reimbursed for my petrol, a couple of beers, some food and some good banter.

I am not being taken for granted, I am helping the players and the sport.

Out of all that, I get petrol money.

The smarter coaches and teams appreciate us. The rest...well, they take us for granted. Around here, refereeing or umpiring something like High School basketball can net someone $200+ quite easily. And they would have to travel not very far at all. My shortest trip is 105 miles round trip. Usually 220. 500 on a bad day. Yeah, the match fees will help when they get here so I can buy the FPO something nice for Christmas in appreciation of the fact that she loses me until a stupid time most every Saturday.

ctrainor
03-12-13, 18:12
On the subject of enticing refs what happens around the world for new ref courses? Here, and I stand to be corrected I think it costs the individual who wants to become a ref £40 for the ENtry level course. Often clubs reimburse this but not always. Hardly good pr for giving up 2 Sundays. Personally I think they should be free

leaguerefaus
03-12-13, 18:12
In Queensland for league, I think it's $75 for a new ref to do the course, which also includes insurance. However, there's a lot of coupons flying around which take the $75 down to $25, with the extra $50 being paid for by the Queensland Rugby League. The QRL also sets minimum match fees - $20 for u6-12s, and increasing thereafter.

Toby Warren
03-12-13, 18:12
Do you guys pay tax on these fees?

Womble
03-12-13, 18:12
Being self employed, refereeing costs me money! yes we get a fee on the panel but the time that is asked of us ( when we are in our prime) the money goes no where near covering it. on average the cost in lost earnings is approx £4k-£6k per annum and I have been doing it a long time! would I change it ? No No and a big fat NO because I have had a great time doing it and enjoyed every second of my refereeing career..............:hap:

leaguerefaus
03-12-13, 18:12
Do you guys pay tax on these fees?

In Aus, refereeing is usually considered a hobby and thus exempt from tax. Obviously NRL, S15 referees etc. cannot get away with claiming this!

Dixie
03-12-13, 18:12
In Aus, refereeing is usually considered a hobby and thus exempt from tax. Obviously NRL, S15 referees etc. cannot get away with claiming this! In UK, payments in excess of genuine out-of-pocket expenses are income. HM Revenue & Customs has had a lot of fun finding and prosecuting unemployed community soccer refs who both take their match payments and continue to claim their social security benefits.

leaguerefaus
03-12-13, 18:12
In UK, payments in excess of genuine out-of-pocket expenses are income. HM Revenue & Customs has had a lot of fun finding and prosecuting unemployed community soccer refs who both take their match payments and continue to claim their social security benefits.

Whilst not taxable here, social security has a very loose definition of 'income' and match payments do count for this purpose.

Browner
03-12-13, 19:12
HM Revenue & Customs has had a lot of fun finding and prosecuting unemployed community soccer refs who both take their match payments and continue to claim their social security benefits.

Wonder if it'll ever happen in rugby?!

Browner
03-12-13, 20:12
I don't pay but still have fun and get reimbursed for my petrol, a couple of beers, some food and some good banter.

I am not being taken for granted, I am helping the players and the sport.

Just because you don't feel "taken for granted" doesn't mean you aren't being ..... I think a lot of players/clubs/players/school do take the referee for granted. Evidenced by less than great Hospitality. At Grass roots I'd favour £30 match fee + £0.50p per mile travel expences [& a scaled rising as referees time investment is advanced ] £1 on a match fee - is a mere pittance....easily afforded c.30% the cost of a pint ! or 130% of a bag of crisps ! ....

This subject is the 'Emperors latest designer Clothes & Iphone5' ! !

colesy
03-12-13, 20:12
Wonder if it'll ever happen in rugby?!

In the UK, as long as you're not getting more than 45p per mile and doing no more than 10,000 miles per annum on expenses, HMRC deems that there is no profit element involved and therefore nothing to declare as taxable income (according to my accountant and he's paid to keep me honest).

OB..
03-12-13, 20:12
If you are going to pay referees, what about assessors and coaches? I get travel expenses plus a free all-weather coat. I'm happy.

TigerCraig
03-12-13, 22:12
If you are going to pay referees, what about assessors and coaches? I get travel expenses plus a free all-weather coat. I'm happy.

As I put above, we get $25 for coaching/assessment reports. To count you have to have been appointed and the report has to be entered into the database.

menace
03-12-13, 22:12
What a jaundiced view?

The players pay to play and have fun.
I don't pay but still have fun and get reimbursed for my petrol, a couple of beers, some food and some good banter.

I am not being taken for granted, I am helping the players and the sport.

It does seem that way Phil, but unfortunately over here, as I mentioned earlier, from my experience;
We don't get reimbursed for petrol under 150km
We don't get a couple of beers
We don't get some food
And
We don't get some good banter (unless you call abuse and dissent as banter).
It's a different culture here, so yeah, we feel we're taken for granted a lot of the time.

TigerCraig
03-12-13, 22:12
It does seem that way Phil, but unfortunately over here, as I mentioned earlier, from my experience;
We don't get reimbursed for petrol under 150km
We don't get a couple of beers
We don't get some food
And
We don't get some good banter (unless you call abuse and dissent as banter).
It's a different culture here, so yeah, we feel we're taken for granted a lot of the time.

Depends on the club. Problem is, especially at seniors, that the clubs that give you the most free beers and the best food generally have the worst supporters :shrug:

PaulDG
03-12-13, 23:12
As I put above, we get $25 for coaching/assessment reports. To count you have to have been appointed and the report has to be entered into the database.

FWIW, We've now moved away from writing reports all the time.

Yes, we do formal reports when it's appropriate for the grading committee, but we're also doing a lot of coaching/advising now to give support, suggest a few things that could have been done differently, etc. with nothing written down.

The idea is to get away from the "Oh God, I've got an assessor this Saturday" towards "Oh good, Terry/Mike/John/Paul's going to come along on Saturday, maybe he'll have some ideas about why I'm missing so much at the breakdown..."

TigerCraig
03-12-13, 23:12
We find that the juniors in particular like the written reports (we type them into a database which auto emails them to the referee and to the head of coaching) as straight after a game they don't take anything in.

This is especially the case the way our days are scheduled as unless they are doing the last game of the day they only have a 2 or 3 minute gap to get out for the next game - either as centre again or as AR, or in the case of junior refs to get ready to play their own game (which you, their referee coach, may well be refereeing which is a fun challenge - especially when they give you a quizzical "but didn't you just tell me" look).

I should note that they aren't "reports" as such - there are no grades on them. They are coaching summaries - what the ref said they wanted to work on and how that went, what else they did well, areas for improvement. Asessments are a different matter.

menace
04-12-13, 00:12
Yes...same here. Due the shortage of referee coaches and the effort to do full reports, we now have the referee coaches submitting short 'thumbnail' reports, something like:

'Johnnycake B'Good - U13 div 3. A game controlled by a much bigger and skilled White team (2 very agile bulldozers did the damage) to run out easy winners. Blue's smaller team did their best to compete and their structure at the TRM served them well to test White at times. Johnny did well to manage the offside at TRM - and appropriately sanctioned the lazy defending pillars and spoke to both captains and players about their serial offenders, which did well to prevent the need to escalate the sanction.
Johnny:
- needs to set the LO wider and watch/manage the early lifting.
- Set scrum at 5m for knock on at LO.
- Did well to 'reset' incorrectly taken quick tap.
- Had 2 instances where he missed players offside in front of kicker having a material affect.
- Spotted and dealt appropriately with high tackles.

This level is about right to allow him to work on these issues."

These are soon going into a database so that they can be shared and viewed within the group and provided to the kid too. This sytems has been working well for us for about 2 years.

SimonSmith
04-12-13, 01:12
$50 per coaching report

Which means, on my hourly rate at work, I take a loss

Robert Burns
04-12-13, 05:12
It does seem that way Phil, but unfortunately over here, as I mentioned earlier, from my experience;
We don't get reimbursed for petrol under 150km
We don't get a couple of beers
We don't get some food
And
We don't get some good banter (unless you call abuse and dissent as banter).
It's a different culture here, so yeah, we feel we're taken for granted a lot of the time.

I don't get petrol
I do normally get a couple of beers
I do normally get some food
I get varying degrees of banter.
Every club has a fairly decent clubhouse!

You should move to WA! :biggrin:


FWIW, We've now moved away from writing reports all the time.

Yes, we do formal reports when it's appropriate for the grading committee, but we're also doing a lot of coaching/advising now to give support, suggest a few things that could have been done differently, etc. with nothing written down.

The idea is to get away from the "Oh God, I've got an assessor this Saturday" towards "Oh good, Terry/Mike/John/Paul's going to come along on Saturday, maybe he'll have some ideas about why I'm missing so much at the breakdown..."


We report for Juniors, it helps them lots, for seniors we use the GPR, it's all online and works really well when the coaches add their feedback to it.

This year we are also going to be using analysis software I hope, so will be able to look at every scrum, lineout, penalty, etc... Looking forward to it.


As a different angle, how many of you have to pay to be in your association/society?

I have to pay $100 a season ($60 for those still in full time education) but I get lots more back from that in Match fees as a coach & as a Ref.

menace
04-12-13, 06:12
We don't pay association fees (Brumbies, by agreement, are supposed to pay i as a subsidy to encourage referee recruitment and retention, but they haven't forked out for 3 years) as such we run on the smell of an oily rag of other fund raising ....and the crunch has come that we have to cut back on referee development things or introduce association fees so we can operate and provide at least 'some' sort of service to the members. It's a rediculous situation we are in. We simply cannot afford any decent services now - forget development and new initiatives! If we were getting some sort of payment, then a rego fee wouldn't be an issue and we could provide better development and services.

Simon Thomas
04-12-13, 07:12
I've heard some rumours that 'they' are considering introducing a payment for referees a la football (who can expect a minimum of £20-25 for junior games). Not sure how much truth/likelihood is behind this?
There have been past reviews in RFU about this and yes a RFRU working party are looking at it again.

likelihood is low IMHO.

Simon Thomas
04-12-13, 08:12
Wonder if it'll ever happen in rugby?!

It is happening right now in a high profile case in England .

Simon Thomas
04-12-13, 08:12
In the UK, as long as you're not getting more than 45p per mile and doing no more than 10,000 miles per annum on expenses, HMRC deems that there is no profit element involved and therefore nothing to declare as taxable income (according to my accountant and he's paid to keep me honest).

As you say as long as it is just travel expenses that is fine but Panel and Elite Premiership MatchOfficials are paid a match fee as well as travel expenses. That is under contract and RFU pays PAYE and NI.

crossref
04-12-13, 11:12
There have been past reviews in RFU about this and yes a RFRU working party are looking at it again.

likelihood is low IMHO.

perhaps the RFU could define what they think is best practice and clubs can decide whether to work towards that, if they wish/can
This is how the RFU do a lot of things.

I mean it's not clear to me whether the RFU would think it was desirable for a clubs to pay club refs for each game. I am not sure it is desirable.

In my sons age group are three or four dads who coach/ help coach / administrate / first aid. And myself who sometimes referees them. I don't really see why I should be the only one to collect £20 for my time.

If I go and ref another age group in the same club, same thing really. I am more than happy to accept a pint, but to be honest it's not totally clear I deserve it particualrly. No one buys the coach a pint, or the first aider.

Adam
04-12-13, 12:12
I don't get petrol
I do normally get a couple of beers
I do normally get some food
I get varying degrees of banter.
Every club has a fairly decent clubhouse!

You should move to WA! :biggrin:

Provided my exams go well next week and I am successful in my application in early January I will be resident there for at least 7 weeks of June and July 2014.

Toby Warren
04-12-13, 13:12
All sorts of issues with a £20 match fee.

Are you an employee?
Do you get holiday pay?
Does RFu pay employers NI
Is there employers liability Insurance?
Is £20 minimum wage compliant

A LOT of aggrivation for the ref to receive a few quid (for many of us on here it £20 would be less than £8 net.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
04-12-13, 13:12
Provided my exams go well next week and I am successful in my application in early January I will be resident there for at least 7 weeks of June and July 2014.

Whey hey!

Browner
04-12-13, 13:12
There have been past reviews in RFU about this and yes a RFRU working party are looking at it again.

likelihood is low IMHO.


The 'salaried' deciding what's best for volunteers ?

.... We had something like this at my previous Club, the Executive committee would convene , drink free beer & nosh on the buffet whilst they decide on how the volunteers should do more !

Browner
04-12-13, 13:12
It is happening right now in a high profile case in England .

Sorry Simon, I forgot to add the " :sarc: ", i thought my "?!" might have been the clue that I knew :wink:.

Browner
04-12-13, 14:12
perhaps the RFU could define what they think is best practice and clubs can decide whether to work towards that, if they wish/can
This is how the RFU do a lot of things.

I mean it's not clear to me whether the RFU would think it was desirable for a clubs to pay club refs for each game. I am not sure it is desirable.

In my sons age group are three or four dads who coach/ help coach / administrate / first aid. And myself who sometimes referees them. I don't really see why I should be the only one to collect £20 for my time.

If I go and ref another age group in the same club, same thing really. I am more than happy to accept a pint, but to be honest it's not totally clear I deserve it particualrly. No one buys the coach a pint, or the first aider.

I don't think anyone expects "own son" volunteers to be compensated at Grass Roots.
Referee swapping between age groups isn't dissimilar [arguably].

It's formal refereeing that's the issue....where you have to plan, prepare, fitness, train, study, report, travel, give time, administer, fees to join, .... that I'm refering to.

If people are happy volunteering then they should have the option to donate their fees to a club/assoc/charity of their choice, but to refuse to reward/recompense the other referees is quite frankly archaic & societies need to align with the modern world.

crossref
04-12-13, 14:12
I don't think anyone expects "own son" volunteers to be compensated at Grass Roots.
Referee swapping between age groups isn't dissimilar [arguably].

It's formal refereeing that's the issue....where you have to plan, prepare, fitness, train, study, report, travel, give time, administer, fees to join, .... that I'm refering to.



once you are out of the realm of little kids playing tag, the two situations are not different

It's a complete myth that club refs have no requirments on fitness, training, admin etc etc. All of club refs are ELRA trained and have to be fit etc.

Also very often club refs and society refs are one and same people, just doing different roles.

it's also a myth that club-refs are invariably or necessarily doing lower importance games.

This weekend I am doing
- Saturday a 3rd XV team merit table match, L11.
- Sunday a U17 A team local derby.

The Sunday game will be more skillful, faster, likely more aggressive and in the scheme of things more important to the clubs : it's the U17 players that might be in the 1st XV in two years time (although of equal importance to the players I am sure). I expect the Sunday game will have many more spectators.

there's no reason to say that my saturday game deserves the £20 more than my Sunday one does.

Simon Thomas
04-12-13, 16:12
perhaps the RFU could define what they think is best practice and clubs can decide whether to work towards that, if they wish/can
This is how the RFU do a lot of things.

I mean it's not clear to me whether the RFU would think it was desirable for a clubs to pay club refs for each game. I am not sure it is desirable.

In my sons age group are three or four dads who coach/ help coach / administrate / first aid. And myself who sometimes referees them. I don't really see why I should be the only one to collect £20 for my time.

If I go and ref another age group in the same club, same thing really. I am more than happy to accept a pint, but to be honest it's not totally clear I deserve it particualrly. No one buys the coach a pint, or the first aider.

crossref - I agree with you that RFU do not want Match fees to cover 'time' to Club Refs, nor to most levels of Society Refs either. From past conversations I have had with RFU Refs Dept. theere has been a strong Council bias to volunteer refs. For the new Development Department it is the least of their worries currently as they are mostly with out any management and with Societies asking for resources. However as we get a decline in Society Referee numbers and quality of any recruits, the whole Recruitment & Retention discussion will come up yet again and so will referee payment. Hence RFRU are looking at it pro-actively.

The OP was regarding paying refs for Junior/Youth matches. In RFUland these are mostly Club Refs, or Society Refs acting as Club Refs, at their home club (no travel expenses) as volunteers - I cannot see that changing, so a match fee payment does not arise based on the wonderful volunteer culture we have. Many clubs are stuggling financially as it is and cannot afford to pay any travel expenses (we used to have a local club referee swap scheme but it was discontinued due to travel costs) let alone referee match fees for Junior / Youth matches.

Some of us made comments about Society and Panel referee match payments but they are not really relevant to the OP re Junior/Youth match referees.

At Adult levels Clubs already pay a match fee to the Society (£25-40 depending on Society and sometimes it also varies by level of game up to L6, as each Society sets its own fees), which pays for Society admin, training etc and usually the travel too (some Societies have lower match fees and refs are reimbursed for travel on the day in cash by the club). For L5 to L1 Refs RFU charge clubs direct to pay for the Group (travel expenses only), Panel & Elite set ups.

I can't see the RFU pro-actively pushing the Referee Match Fee question in the current climate.

Simon Thomas
04-12-13, 17:12
The 'salaried' deciding what's best for volunteers ?

.... We had something like this at my previous Club, the Executive committee would convene , drink free beer & nosh on the buffet whilst they decide on how the volunteers should do more !

No salaried folks on RFRU.

All those on the RFRU Committee are a volunteer from a Federation, and also often Society Committee too, as well as being active referees, referee coaches and match observers. The salaried staff (Ed, Savvo, Gary, etc - or whomever is left in those jobs these days) attend to report on the "paid dept" activities.

Likewise the RFU Community Game Board and indeed RFU Council are almost all non-paid volunteers - and those paid Executive are there to report usually.

Most clubs I now have perhaps a paid DoR, Coach, maybe a few players paid too if National League levels, a Clubhouse Manager maybe, and perhaps a part-time paid Adminsirator or Secretary. But the majority of the Committees I have been on at Club and Societies / Federations are all volunteers and pay money into the club as sponsors, guarantors to loans, or just to keep the club going,

Simon Thomas
04-12-13, 17:12
Sorry Simon, I forgot to add the " :sarc: ", i thought my "?!" might have been the clue that I knew :wink:.

Browner - I can never be sure with you :biggrin:. Also front of my mind as we had a Society Committee meeting (all unpaid volunteers) Monday and I heard more about that specific situation.

irishref
04-12-13, 17:12
in the Netherlands either

- 23 cents per km or (as in my case)

- the cost of the train. I have a 40% discount card so I'm really cheap :)

Also the competition rules dictate the home club has to pick up the ref from the nearest train station if he (or she) so requires. All claimed by the ref directly with the union.

Never had any hosting club offering anything less than a pre-game coffee, sport drink at halftime and plenty of liquids post game. Plus informal evaluation!

Simon Thomas
04-12-13, 17:12
If people are happy volunteering then they should have the option to donate their fees to a club/assoc/charity of their choice, but to refuse to reward/recompense the other referees is quite frankly archaic & societies need to align with the modern world.

Browner - Sorry but you are talking out of your ar*se !

I have run a Society of 100+ referees for 7 seasons and we had to balance a budget of £45,000-£55,000 over that time, 85% of which is cost of travel claimed offset against match fees charged (at £30). We get no money from RFU and no money from CB. Any sponsorship money we have to get ourselves and we use that for special extras like Young Officials, Recruitment, Training Equipment, etc - not on Stash.

We are totally aligned with the modern world in terms of the training and development techniques we apply, the technology we use, and cost saving measures applied. We recognise the volunteer nature of our members, and our own admin time given freely.

Once you start charging clubs for referees, you change the whole dynamic, expectations, service delivery, etc - just look at what has happened at Panel and especially Elite where PRL especially with GASH's review process is a commercial relationship. In making that change you bring in more admin and management tasks and so you need at least one paid Society administrator perhaps.

We discussed this topic at the summer's Lensubury Society Leaders Conference and most were against paid referees below Level 4.

irishref
04-12-13, 17:12
Oh sorry, I saw the proviso in the question concerning Junior rugby. In NL the only underage grade that has appointed refs is Colts. All other underage rugby is played on Saturday (not Sunday as the bulk of the game here) and then it's home-appointed refs.

TigerCraig
04-12-13, 20:12
Unfortunately here its no pay no refs, esp in the future. My soc has around 200 members. Of this there is I believe only 1 in the 25 to 35 age bracket. As all the older guys who started in the amateur days start hanging up the boots the only way to replace them is with pay. When you are the number 3 or 4 sport and you require more travelling than the others their isn't much option. Even my boy who loves reffing and rugby and has never played league hears what his mates are getting reffibg league and is having evil thoughts. Luckily our tax office has a much more decent view of hobby income.

ctrainor
04-12-13, 22:12
I pay £15 a year to be a member of my society, I'm also a member of my club £50 I think!!
I have to pay for all my own kit, very occasionally subsidised if we get a sponsor.
If I attend a monthly meeting it is 70 miles away and I don't get petrol money for that.
I tghink our clubs are charged £50 a year per Adult team for appointed refs though some may demand a refund as lower teams often do not get a ref.
We do not appoint to any youth games as most of us are too old and don't want to do it. I will do one sunday a month at my own club.
As for club referees we have very few and many lower level games are reffed by old players who have never been near an ELRA course. The society is trying hard to recruit but it is difficult.
The other reality which people forget is when you are a player every other week ypou are at home. As a ref you rarely do your own town so it takes a hell of a lot more time than when you played.

BTW I still love it!!

menace
05-12-13, 00:12
Browner - Sorry but you are talking out of your ar*se !

I have run a Society of 100+ referees for 7 seasons and we had to balance a budget of £45,000-£55,000 over that time, 85% of which is cost of travel claimed offset against match fees charged (at £30). We get no money from RFU and no money from CB. Any sponsorship money we have to get ourselves and we use that for special extras like Young Officials, Recruitment, Training Equipment, etc - not on Stash.

We are totally aligned with the modern world in terms of the training and development techniques we apply, the technology we use, and cost saving measures applied. We recognise the volunteer nature of our members, and our own admin time given freely.

Once you start charging clubs for referees, you change the whole dynamic, expectations, service delivery, etc - just look at what has happened at Panel and especially Elite where PRL especially with GASH's review process is a commercial relationship. In making that change you bring in more admin and management tasks and so you need at least one paid Society administrator perhaps.

We discussed this topic at the summer's Lensubury Society Leaders Conference and most were against paid referees below Level 4.

Simon, I think that was a little unfair on Browner and wasn't really necessary. He has a point this time and his perceptions aren't necessarily untrue.

It's not an easy situation to deal with because of the million factors, and everyone has has a good points regarding the pros and cons of paying referees. I would hazard a guess to suggest that a majority here are more than happy to give up their time, but would just like to be reimbursed for a proportion of their out of pockets costs, so that they can keep affording and justify continuing to give up their time to referee. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the costs without accounting for time, is significant, and just getting 50% of it reimbursed would help. I have been a team coach, team manager, a club secretary, u19 referee appointments and grading coordinator, and referee, and I can tell you that the costs out of my wallet is far more as a referee than any other involvement I've had with rugby.

So far travel is partially reimbursed, but IMO it needs to go further, is all that is being suggested. It's a user pays world now, so I think it's a reality that it needs to happen if rugby is to stay relevant and it's a little naive to think otherwise (especially on this island). So it's not such a stupid idea that those those don't want to collect can pass it on to their society, but those that want it to shouldn't really be denied.

Just as an aside, your club funding is huge (probably equivalent to about A$100k) , although travel in our association if centrally paid by the union, (about $20k i think) our association of 50 senior referees and 100 junior referees for everything else has to operate on less than $10k pa. When 50% is spent on valuable referee training alone, it doesn't leave much for anything else such as exchanges and other development!

OB..
05-12-13, 01:12
Simon, I think that was a little unfair on Browner and wasn't really necessary.
Browner and Simon Thomas are both in England (though Browner is coy about quite where he is). Not all societies are equal even so, but we are not in the same difficult situation as you are. This is not a case of one size fits all, but I would expect Browner's Society/CB to be closer to ST's situation than to yours.

menace
05-12-13, 01:12
More the term was unfair...rather than the sentiment.....IMO.

TigerCraig
05-12-13, 04:12
On the tax issue, my dad (who is a tax accountant) told me that our tax office had worked out that if they made income from "hobbies" such as refereeing, baby sitting, market stalls for handicrafts etc declarable as income they would actually lose money - as people would have deductions and rebates greater than their level of income so would have a tax loss to offset against their pay-as-you-go income

Robert Burns
05-12-13, 04:12
Provided my exams go well next week and I am successful in my application in early January I will be resident there for at least 7 weeks of June and July 2014.

Don't bother bringing summer clothes, it'll be cold (probably mild to you) and quite wet at times.

Do bring stud & moulded boots, though studs only really needed at stadium games (which in 7 weeks, you probably won't get).

Guyseep
05-12-13, 07:12
We get paid roughly on this scale

$40 for junior games (18 or younger)
$50 for 2nds or lower division Senior Men's and Women's
$60 for 1st side Men's and Women's ($25 if you AR one of these games)
Travel is based on a flat rate between certain distances over 80km

7's tournaments are roughly $15/game

We also typically get 1 or 2 coaching reports a year with a video of our game

FlipFlop
05-12-13, 09:12
In Switzerland we get:

Between 100CHF and 30CHF per game (approx 85Eur/70GBP to 25Euro/20GBP) (Top level down to schools). Half that if we are appointed as TJ. Paid direct from the clubs.

PLUS

We get 0.50CHF per KM each way from home to ground (by road, not as the crows flies) (about 55p/mile or 0.40euro/km) paid by the federation

It works out as a lot of money each season. We need to buy some of our kit, which gets taken out of our expenses. People say we need to pay to get refs - but we are still short. And think most would do it for less.

There has to be a better way to entice people into taking up the whistle.

menace
05-12-13, 11:12
Leaving them short changed in the pocket isn't one!

FlipFlop
05-12-13, 14:12
Menace - my issue is more: I can go to a game, and get 350CHF travel expenses, having spent about 100CHF travelling first class on the train...... Plus I get my match fee.

But my comment isn't about being short changed, it is about - is payment to right way to motivate people to pick up the whistle? I'm not so sure, but can't think of many other ways.....

menace
05-12-13, 14:12
Agree...(sorry i was being a little flippant..no pun intended) I'm not about 'making profit' either, just covering costs, and I think it is partially an incentive to attract them but more of incentive to retain referees....but to start refereeing you really have to want to do it. If you don want to do it, I suspect the money isn't an attraction at all (except maybe kids for pocket money...but not adults). In fact I would say there is nothing material that is a recruitment tool. I think eliminating abuse would be a good start. Many see the hard time refs get and just don't want to put themselves in front of it voluntarily.

FlipFlop
05-12-13, 14:12
My thoughts on this is - is getting people to try it the biggest hurdle?

Is it better (given a limited supply of refs) to cover top level games with TO3s, and leave the lower levers uncovered, forcing the clubs to get someone to do it, in the hope that some of those will take it up "full time", or is it better to spread your refs out and try to cover as many games as possible?

We also have a "fines" system - each TEAM has to supply at least 1 ref, or they get a 1,500CHF fine. But most clubs just budget for the fines, so ti doesn't really work. Point deductions might though. But again - this means people will be "forced" into reffing, and they aren't necessarily the right people for it.

Answers on a postcard....

leaguerefaus
05-12-13, 16:12
From what I have seen, even with the decent pay league refs get in my area, if someone doesn't enjoy doing it, they give it up within the first year. I'm sure this is no surprise!

Jarrod Burton
06-12-13, 00:12
As a few of you know, I also do regional Premier League and club netball umpiring and we get paid a flat rate regardless of the matches grade. As an unbadged (ie unqualified) umpire, your club (as we associate with a club rather than a ref society) will pay you $12-15 per match, once badged, the local netball association pays you an additional $12 per match, meaning a weeks worth of games (1 Wed, 1 Thurs and 2 Sats - 5 hours total court time) pays me around $100. Even social netball pays $30 for two very low grade matches. Once I take fuel out I'm probably being paid less than $10 a match and frankly from a financial point of view I'd be better off stacking shelves at the super market

The Fat
06-12-13, 20:12
As a few of you know, I also do regional Premier League and club netball umpiring and we get paid a flat rate regardless of the matches grade. As an unbadged (ie unqualified) umpire, your club (as we associate with a club rather than a ref society) will pay you $12-15 per match, once badged, the local netball association pays you an additional $12 per match, meaning a weeks worth of games (1 Wed, 1 Thurs and 2 Sats - 5 hours total court time) pays me around $100. Even social netball pays $30 for two very low grade matches. Once I take fuel out I'm probably being paid less than $10 a match and frankly from a financial point of view I'd be better off stacking shelves at the super market

So do you umpire because you enjoy it or do you do it as an income stream?

Stuartg
06-12-13, 21:12
I referee because I enjoy it. It's a hobby. So I'm not looking to make moey, or even break een doing it. I do it like others may sing, fish, golf, collect stamps etc. But travelling expenses are always welcome!

irishref
06-12-13, 21:12
It's clear: I'm moving to either the USA, Canada or Switzerland ;-)

But on a serious note, a move to the New York area (Long Island) may be on the cards and of course I will bring my kit!

menace
07-12-13, 01:12
I referee because I enjoy it. It's a hobby. So I'm not looking to make moey, or even break een doing it. I do it like others may sing, fish, golf, collect stamps etc. But travelling expenses are always welcome!

Especially when you have to justify your hobby to your 'Minister of Time and Finance'!:deadhorse:

The Fat
07-12-13, 03:12
Especially when you have to justify your hobby to your 'Minister of Time and Finance'!:deadhorse:

Isn't that same Minister also The Secretary of The War Office?

menace
07-12-13, 05:12
The one and the same...also part time job as the judge, jury and executioner in the High Court.

Jarrod Burton
07-12-13, 23:12
So do you umpire because you enjoy it or do you do it as an income stream?

The last bit of my post dropped off.

I don't do any umpiring/reffing for profit, but in the case of umpiring (netball) some feeling of loyalty (likely misplaced considering how I have been treated in the lead up to finals this year) kept me going. Unfortunately, I'm hating umpiring the mixed social games now as there is little to no respect to the umpires and frankly I've got better things to do, like pre season training/torture with my club and work. The cash incentive isn't enough to keep me wanting to be there and if I was honest, with a new house to deal with and my own business to run afterhours I can always do more at home so I need to consider the best use for my time. The lack of support from higher up that is occuring in netball is also concerning, which is thankfully not being reflected in rugby.

Final decision - I'm withdrawing from netball on Saturdays and social rosters and now only umpiring every second Wednesday and Thursday (non-social premier leagues). This is not because of the lack of $, as I would do it without it at this level, but because I'm sick of the lack of support and politics.

Rugby wise - I'm devoting more of my time to the cause, because we get better support and friendships, even though I don't get paid. It would be really great to get travel expenses covered, considering some days we do one match here and the next 20k away then drive home, but I certainly wouldn't stop doing it if I didn't get paid.

From the Minister for Home Affairs point of view, I'm sure a little bit of spending money from rugby reffing would ease her complaints about the amount of time that I spend doing rugby things!

menace
08-12-13, 00:12
From the Minister for Home Affairs point of view, I'm sure a little bit of spending money from rugby reffing would ease her complaints about the amount of time that I spend doing rugby things!

Welcome to the brethren brother! Buy yourself some earplugs...as it only increases exponentially with each year you hang with unpaid rugby.:pepper:

The Fat
08-12-13, 00:12
Welcome to the brethren brother! Buy yourself some earplugs...as it only increases exponentially with each year you hang with unpaid rugby.:pepper:


Tell the girls that if you were not reffing rugby matches, you would need to spend 4 or 5 hundred dollars a year on gym membership to stay in top stud condition and that by doing the rugby thing you are actually saving money. Use the old, "I'm only doing it for you darling", line. Let me know how you get on.

menace
08-12-13, 00:12
I do the gym thing though as well, just to stay in condition during the offseason. The ol' " I only look this good cause of reffing" isn't going to cut it. But I'll let you know how many bruises I get when I try it! (And I dare not tell her how much I've spent on physio to cure what ails me)

Browner
04-11-14, 18:11
Bump.......

From time to time this subject resurfaces, apologies to all those disinterested by this, but I've stumbled across this .........

http://www.rahrahrugby.com/vacancies/london-2-club-seeking-prop-and-fly-half-615

http://rahrahrugby.com/vacancies/england-back-row-player-needed-urgently-593

http://rahrahrugby.com/vacancies/england-back-rower-needed-in-london-601

Q? What level is London 3 ??? !!!!!!!



Clearly it contradicts the 'myth' that properly funded refereeing isnt affordable

Browner
04-11-14, 18:11
Oh no, I'm on my soap box now .......

North 1 West advert ...... I've inserted my own addition see if you can spot it !!!???!!!


A Northern England side, currently playing in North West 1 are seeking to recruit front 5 players, with a Prop and a Hooker a priority, quality Locks can also be considered.

The club can sign one non more EU player, other recruits need to be EU passport holders.
The club can offer the following benefits for the right players.


Return Flights
Employment, likely to be agricultural, Bar, Gym or construction based
Possible coaching role in local schools, minimum coaching level 1 qualification needed
Rented Accomodation
Gym Membership

Kit & Physio

Match day responsibility for thanking the Volunteer Referee and ensuring he has a pint of shandy FoC. Under no circumstances should the player divulge the combined cost of their recruitment to this official, who is blissfully believing the RFU that there is no money in the game to reward him for his volunteer time supporting this sport.

ANY player actively dispelling this 'myth' will find his accomodation downgraded.





So, at least x3 'packages' costed out at L6 !

OK, soap box re-packed away in garage ( for now) ....

Waiting for Simon T's rebuttle :Nerv:

4eyesbetter
04-11-14, 19:11
Simon T does not buttle. He has a man to do that for him.

Adam
04-11-14, 22:11
Bump.......

From time to time this subject resurfaces, apologies to all those disinterested by this, but I've stumbled across this .........

http://www.rahrahrugby.com/vacancies/london-2-club-seeking-prop-and-fly-half-615

http://rahrahrugby.com/vacancies/england-back-row-player-needed-urgently-593

http://rahrahrugby.com/vacancies/england-back-rower-needed-in-london-601

Q? What level is London 3 ??? !!!!!!!



Clearly it contradicts the 'myth' that properly funded refereeing isnt affordable

London 3 is L8 I believe?

menace
04-11-14, 23:11
I'm with Browner....unions, clubs and players can afford it if they want to. Referees can enforce it if they want to achieve parity with other codes.

Oz rugby is supposedly broke. ARU is supposedly in financial trouble after years of mismanagement. But if the players want a service, they need to find a way to fund it.

You can enact change. It's not easy, but it can be done.

Browner
11-11-14, 16:11
My next match sees me attend a university fixture. Here is a selective summary of the day for Simon or any RFU reader.

C.6 hours of preparation/rush hour sitting time included, referee the match to 'as close to proffessional as I can acheive' , time taken off from my day job to do this.

Vehicle/petrol Expences of c.£12
Arrive & meet groundsman driving a facilities tractor/4x4 that costs 3x my car.
Change in the sports changing facilities that recently cost more to build than a small hotel in Twickenham is valued at (>£8m!)
Critiqued by a coach who's daily rate dwarfs mine.

Irrespective of the No cup of tea before or after !!!! , its a joke (a RFU & ref society con) that a university can get "contracted in services" without paying a proper market rate. Schools also can always find resources for educational/sporting needs IF and when they need to.

If they were advised tomorrow that rugby referees are now £100 a fixture, they'd include it in their budget and pay it, or develop/employ from within ( which I doubt they'd do, for liability reasons)

Quite frankly this status quo to change, Society and RFU attitudes need to modernise.
I can see myself withdrawing my labour to the educational organisations, if I'm not valued more appropriately.

Simon Thomas
11-11-14, 22:11
Browner -Tim Miller of London is leading a RFU working group right now into the topic of Referee payments and it will report through RFRU I think.

Can I forward your comments to him ?

Simon Thomas
11-11-14, 23:11
Oh no, I'm on my soap box now .......

North 1 West advert ...... I've inserted my own addition see if you can spot it !!!???!!!



So, at least x3 'packages' costed out at L6 !

OK, soap box re-packed away in garage ( for now) ....

Waiting for Simon T's rebuttle :Nerv:

I think you mean rebuttal. Why would I do that ?

I am not surprised by what you say at all. I am aware of the playing finances of three clubs - two at Level 5 and one at Level 7 - and such arrangements are not unusual.

The issue of Referee payments cones around every now and again and right now a RFU working group is looking at the options.

Clubs, Unis and schools already pay a referee match fee around £25-40 depending on which Society it is and I question your comment re Unis especially - I know for a fact that both Portsmouth & Southampton Unis have had cuts to their sports dept budgets, salaries, coaches made redundant, etc in the last few seasons.

I have no objections what-so-ever for higher level referees to be paid - Panel Referees already are. There are some good arguments to drop that down a couple more levels. However be very careful what you wish for, as being paid changes your status from volunteer to paid official - and the whole basis of your relationships and dynamics to players, coaches, Committee men and even spectators changes to a very different set.

And a paid referee's performance measurement is likely change to a work like performance appraisal and you will be expected to deliver against a higher level. That has some major implications for match observers / assessors, the whole development and training / coaching framework, and pressure on a paid referee.

ctrainor
11-11-14, 23:11
I regularly ref level 7 where some players are paid £100 a game and I'm the one who gets all the stick no matter how shit the paid men have played.
The other argument I'm losing rapidly with the boss is that I played rugby when I married her.
Yes but you weren't away every week for hours on end. I have no defence

menace
11-11-14, 23:11
I have no objections what-so-ever for higher level referees to be paid - Panel Referees already are. There are some good arguments to drop that down a couple more levels. However be very careful what you wish for, as being paid changes your status from volunteer to paid official - and the whole basis of your relationships and dynamics to players, coaches, Committee men and even spectators changes to a very different set.

And a paid referee's performance measurement is likely change to a work like performance appraisal and you will be expected to deliver against a higher level. That has some major implications for match observers / assessors, the whole development and training / coaching framework, and pressure on a paid referee.

For every argument you put up not to pay, has an equally sound and convincing rebuttal. Equally for every argument you put up to be paid, there is an equally good rebuttal too!. It's a vicious circle of argument. I know, as I've just spent the last 18 months debating it with our local union trying to get match payments up and we went through them all (often heated). However we did not coin it as a 'payment' but rather a 'costs reimbursement' that goes above and beyond the meagre travel expenses and is a set amount spread across each game. We don't expect a match payment will affect the spectators too much in our parts, as they all think we get paid now! Also we are using match payments to introduce subscriptions to pay for the services we need to operate as an association (previous $0 subs and funding was from unreliable donations and sponsors, which are much more difficult to attract nowadays). Referees have to pay for services it uses ( ie training facilities, professional trainers, presenters, referee functions, exchanges, equipment etc).

It is a 'user-pays' world, whether you like it or not. And it's time the players paid for the services they use.

Yes...it will have implications on development, coaches and the machinations of the association, but the reality is that you'll find that you're probably doing them already or they need to be implemented for better development (such as applying standards and referee expectations) and all you're doing is formalising them to show the 'payers' what you're doing. But IMO that has to be a good thing. Nothing wrong with transparency. So if you're suggesting that payment is linked to accountability then I rebutt that. I get paid $0 now, that does not mean I have 0 accountability when I referee a game now (no matter the game level).

Browner
12-11-14, 01:11
Maybe a referees 'Union' is the way forward?

Browner
12-11-14, 01:11
I think you mean rebuttal. Why would I do that ?

I am not surprised by what you say at all. I am aware of the playing finances of three clubs - two at Level 5 and one at Level 7 - and such arrangements are not unusual.

The issue of Referee payments cones around every now and again and right now a RFU working group is looking at the options.

Clubs, Unis and schools already pay a referee match fee around £25-40 depending on which Society it is and I question your comment re Unis especially - I know for a Fact that both Portsmouth & Southampton Unis have had cuts to their sports dept budgets, salaries, coaches made redundant, etc in the last few seasons.

I have no objections what-so-ever for higher level referees to be paid - Panel Referees already are. There are some good arguments to drop that down a couple more levels. However be very careful what you wish for, as being paid changes your status from volunteer to paid official - and the whole basis of your relationships and dynamics to players, coaches, Committee men and even spectators changes to a very different set.

And a paid referee's performance measurement is likely change to a work like performance appraisal and you will be expected to deliver against a higher level. That has some major implications for match observers / assessors, the whole development and training / coaching framework, and pressure on a paid referee.

Yes, and the RFU analysts would have predicted all this "FoC" effort would end one day...the reality is that even at grassroots £1 per player per match ...matched by their club, would pay for most referees /assessors/ coaches etc ..... This sport has moved on Simon, The very elite earned £20k pa in 1995, now its £1m+ the trickle down needs to be ommensurate with the Level operated at.

Perhaps a referee 'union' would be a good idea ? Collective bargaining.

Any referee who is happy to not take his fee, could donate to the host club, his club, the injured referees fund, or the 'supply kit to grassroots referees fund'

Simon, I know its not your fight, but you do often speak up for the 'status quo' , I'm not seeking to offend, and I suspect your own rugby ambitions aren't fuelled by financial reward, I'd be happy to get below minimum wage for this highly complex skill set that facilitates the enjoyment ( and therefore the survival) of rugby clubs.

Try asking this question next weekend in the PMB, " £1 each players, as a thank you to the referee who's given up 5/6 hours of his time today, OR you can play without an independant minded official if you all agree & prefer ??, what, yes player A&E is only 20 mins car drive from here"

Or, Maybe I'm out of touch with referee valuing/rewarding???? RR members??

menace
12-11-14, 03:11
The ticket items for me-
1) We probably all agree that whether you get paid or not, you wouldn't referee unless you enjoyed it. You won't start refereeing or stay refereeing if you hate it...even if you're paid well.

2) unless you're reaching the lofty heights of the elite level (less than 1% of us I suspect) then you are not looking to make an 'income' from it

3) most just want our 'costs' covered. (For me it's 'hush money'..... 'Here darling, here's coffee and lunch money while I'm out on Saturday, now hush!"

4) we simply want what the others are getting!

Simon Thomas
12-11-14, 07:11
Maybe a referees 'Union' is the way forward?

We have one - it is the RFRU (Rugby Football Referees Union). Your representative is elected at Federation level.

JJ10
12-11-14, 08:11
I think Browner and Simon make some pretty good points on both sides of this.

For my own two pence worth, I really enjoy my refereeing and its fairly easy to justify not getting paid at around Level 10. No-one else is at that level (and nor should they!) The same goes for junior rugby at club level and most school games. I usually "charge" less than a tenner for a game, which at a weekend covers a TFL travelcard. It would be easy for us all rocking around at L12-7 to charge more than that if it were agreed by our societies and the RFU, but as ST says I do wonder what impact it will have on the pretty good relationship we get from clubs/coaches/players. Payment implies professionalism, so standards, even at lower levels, would have to go up, as would fitness levels etc. I think some refs (and players and couaches!) would struggle here and actually lose their enjoyment of the game.

I can however see that attitude changing once I've been doing it for longer and start to move up the levels. As Browner says, when schools and Universities start paying their DoRs, coaches and professionalising their set up, and as the clubs start paying their players it becomes slightly harder to justify. We are after all the one who suffers most of the blame when things don't go one team's way, no matter what our performance was actually like.

Having said all that, explaining to mates that I referee for free, take time out of work to do it midweek, and don't always get bought a pint after the game does make for some pretty surprised faces on the other side of the conversation! My only comeback is "maybe one day when I'm good enough...":biggrin:

FlipFlop
12-11-14, 10:11
We get a match fee (depends on level - from 40-100 CHF (40$-100$: £30-£70)). We also get expenses (0.50CHF / km = £0.55/mile).

Sounds good.

Now we are also (and this has been vocalised) considered by many to be employees of the union. So when licences need to be checked (face-face checks), we need to do, when more admin is created, "its okay - the refs can do it". When clubs have issues with the union - they sound off to us. When ........... (you get the idea).

To be honest I would give up all the payments, get my actual expenses paid, and get rid of all the admin and cr@p that comes with it. So be careful what comes attached to what you wish for....

Lee Lifeson-Peart
12-11-14, 10:11
I was stood talking to a player on Saturday when his club's blazer approached with my expenses.

"How much do you want sir?"
"£20 please and you can pay for my raffle ticket and a I'll have a pint of Bombadier :wink:" said I - 60 miles round trip.
"By jove" said the player - except he didin't jove -"is that all you get?"
I explained it was for the mileage. He thought (and I suspect he is not alone) we got a lot more than that.

Phil E
12-11-14, 11:11
The ticket items for me-
1) We probably all agree that whether you get paid or not, you wouldn't referee unless you enjoyed it. You won't start refereeing or stay refereeing if you hate it...even if you're paid well.

That is true for most of us.

But if you start paying referees, you WILL without a doubt get people taking up the whistle just for the money (it happens in football I know for a fact).

leaguerefaus
12-11-14, 11:11
That is true for most of us.

But if you start paying referees, you WILL without a doubt get people taking up the whistle just for the money (it happens in football I know for a fact).

Also, people will start reffing for the money and THEN find out if they enjoy it or not. Happens with a fair few players here.

menace
12-11-14, 11:11
That is true for most of us.

But if you start paying referees, you WILL without a doubt get people taking up the whistle just for the money (it happens in football I know for a fact).


Also, people will start reffing for the money and THEN find out if they enjoy it or not. Happens with a fair few players here.

And if out of those bunch you get a handful of really good referees then it's a good thing otherwise you may never had recruited them. I think the risk to recruit more refs is a good thing.
And if those that do it just for the cash are hopeless will not advance up the leagues/levels (and we hope to implement a sliding scale as incentive to be assessed and move up levels ).

There is no right or wrong in this. But IMO we should allow those that want it to have it (to offset their own costs), and those that don't want the money on principle or otherwise can donate it to their society to assist with development or other uses. Win - win.

Simon Thomas
12-11-14, 11:11
Just to throw an extra topic into the debate.

The English guys will know that Schools are (or think they are) a separate entity (Schools Union as well as RFU) and that there is mostly a big difference between private fee paying "Public Schools" and the state education sector. I totally agree with Browner that there is money to spend for referees in some Schools.

I know of one ex Premiership Referee who referees some "top tier" Schools matches for a fee of £250 per match.
There is another ex RFU employee, an ex-International Referee, who is running his own Referee Courses (not ELRA or the new RFU Level 1 & Level 2 Refereeing courses) for private schools at £hundreds per session.

At a recent L5 game that I was match observing, I was engaged in conversation by a lady who had a 16 year old son, who had done ELRA
a while ago and was already doing his own age group matches on Sundays as a Society member. She was asking about his possible future as a professional referee - she told me that he has been paid £15 per match to referee a local school U16 every Wednesday this season.

TheBFG
12-11-14, 12:11
I know of one ex Premiership Referee who referees some "top tier" Schools matches for a fee of £250 per match.

as you know we have one of these "top tier" schools on our patch, they get charged standard L6 rates for refs, although this season the "federation" has been taking some of their matches as a group stepping stone.

crossref
12-11-14, 12:11
Just to throw an extra topic into the debate.

The English guys will know that Schools are (or think they are) a separate entity (Schools Union as well as RFU) and that there is mostly a big difference between private fee paying "Public Schools" and the state education sector. I totally agree with Browner that there is money to spend for referees in some Schools.

I know of one ex Premiership Referee who referees some "top tier" Schools matches for a fee of £250 per match.
There is another ex RFU employee, an ex-International Referee, who is running his own Referee Courses (not ELRA or the new RFU Level 1 & Level 2 Refereeing courses) for private schools at £hundreds per session.

At a recent L5 game that I was match observing, I was engaged in conversation by a lady who had a 16 year old son, who had done ELRA
a while ago and was already doing his own age group matches on Sundays as a Society member. She was asking about his possible future as a professional referee - she told me that he has been paid £15 per match to referee a local school U16 every Wednesday this season.

I know of one club that paid all its club-refs £20 a game, at least for a while, to encourage members to become refs.

I'd be worried about a school that eschews a neutral Society ref in favour of appointing their own ref, who is paid £250.
That just doesn't give out the right message, it doesn't look right.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
12-11-14, 13:11
I'd be worried about a school that eschews a neutral Society ref in favour of appointing their own ref, who is paid £250.
That just doesn't give out the right message, it doesn't look right.



Perhaps lots of paters and maters had suggested to the Head that if Oscar/Henry/Tarquin etc don't start seeing some Rugby success for their £30,000pa plus add-ons they may consider moving to another school?? Allegedly! :biggrin:

Browner
12-11-14, 13:11
Just to throw an extra topic into the debate.

The English guys will know that Schools are (or think they are) a separate entity (Schools Union as well as RFU) and that there is mostly a big difference between private fee paying "Public Schools" and the state education sector. I totally agree with Browner that there is money to spend for referees in some Schools.

I know of one ex Premiership Referee who referees some "top tier" Schools matches for a fee of £250 per match.
There is another ex RFU employee, an ex-International Referee, who is running his own Referee Courses (not ELRA or the new RFU Level 1 & Level 2 Refereeing courses) for private schools at £hundreds per session.

At a recent L5 game that I was match observing, I was engaged in conversation by a lady who had a 16 year old son, who had done ELRA
a while ago and was already doing his own age group matches on Sundays as a Society member. She was asking about his possible future as a professional referee - she told me that he has been paid £15 per match to referee a local school U16 every Wednesday this season.

This reminds me of the pre 'open game' era, where money was floating through the sport 'unofficially' and ' boot money' existed etc.....
I suspect these examples are the tip of this particular iceberg.

I don't buy the " expectation of performance " of referees will make a difference....... It will still be commensurate with level, if a University/ school/ club want L2 ref, then they are free to request one (at the appropriate fee) and if there is a L2 referee available then they can have him . If there isn't then the get the level (and fee) appropropriate to the level of the referee supplied. When a society appoints - the club 'have no alternative other than to accept the appointment' .....that's it - league rules say independant & that's it....... What practicable alternative would exist?..none.

You get what you pay for, at the moment they should get me simply turning up, instead they get a diligent Law applying , self studying, trained, assessed , fair minded , management skilled , multi skilled practicioner .

When RFU introduced big screen/ TMO use, clubs simply had to find the revenue to supply the technology, and they did.... If the RFU decreed tomorrow that post pads needed to be 450mm thick, then all clubs would find the money to buy them, because otherwise there wouldn't be a game ( nor a bar, nor a club focus cos a rugby club without rugby is merely a social club ) - its quite simple really, supply and demand.

Payment could well increase the amount of self study that a referee does, he might improve in all the areas Law/study/fitness etc .... Users can't go to another supplier, there is no other supplier of this skill/resource.

FlipFlop
12-11-14, 13:11
It will still be commensurate with level, if a University/ school/ club want L2 ref, then they are free to request one (at the appropriate fee) and if there is a L2 referee available then they can have him . If there isn't then the get the level (and fee) appropropriate to the level of the referee supplied.

I would hope the fee is connected to the level of the game, and not referee? So they should not be able to ask for a L2 referee. The Society will appoint an appropriate level referee, who will be paid on the basis of the level of the game.

That is what happens here. It is the level of the game that decides the fee, so a top level referee doing a low level game, gets paid the same as a low level referee doing the same game.

Simon Thomas
12-11-14, 14:11
as you know we have one of these "top tier" schools on our patch, they get charged standard L6 rates for refs, although this season the "federation" has been taking some of their matches as a group stepping stone.

I said "some" and indeed that does not include a school in Street who use The oldest Society in the world's or your Federation's L6s. It is only one such referee at I know of, and he has done it for four or five seasons at two or three schools for their big annual fixtures.

Simon Thomas
12-11-14, 15:11
I know of one club that paid all its club-refs £20 a game, at least for a while, to encourage members to become refs.

I'd be worried about a school that eschews a neutral Society ref in favour of appointing their own ref, who is paid £250.
That just doesn't give out the right message, it doesn't look right.

Interesting about the club paying £20 per match for expenses. I hope it is expenses or there are potential tax implications.

For these high profile schools matches where most players are Academy, international or regional squads, the school never request a Society Referee, so one is never appointed. They go direct to Mr R at the start of the season.

Simon Thomas
12-11-14, 15:11
Perhaps lots of paters and maters had suggested to the Head that if Oscar/Henry/Tarquin etc don't start seeing some Rugby success for their £30,000pa plus add-ons they may consider moving to another school?? Allegedly! :biggrin:

Not really how it works these days.

These schools are connected to the Premiership Academies, have sports scholarship for elite performers, have long traditions of top tier rugby and well paid DOR and coaches on the staff.

These schools are graded at L5 or 6 usually, so normal Society appointments are not applicable anyway in many counties.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
12-11-14, 15:11
Not really how it works these days.

These schools are connected to the Premiership Academies, have sports scholarship for elite performers, have long traditions of top tier rugby and well paid DOR and coaches on the staff.

These schools are graded at L5 or 6 usually, so normal Society appointments are not applicable anyway in many counties.

You're no fun!

Cheers Simon :biggrin:

crossref
12-11-14, 15:11
Interesting about the club paying £20 per match for expenses. I hope it is expenses or there are potential tax implications.

For these high profile schools matches where most players are Academy, international or regional squads, the school never request a Society Referee, so one is never appointed. They go direct to Mr R at the start of the season.

if the schools are doing this collectively I don't have a problem with it -- Isn't it similar to the way the premiership works, collectively don't the teams select the panel of refs, and pay them (?) Or perhaps not.

Anyway if its a collective thing I am OK with it, if the ref is working for one school, then it doesn't seem right, there's an obvious conflict of interest.

Simon Thomas
12-11-14, 15:11
if the schools are doing this collectively I don't have a problem with it -- Isn't it similar to the way the premiership works, collectively don't the teams select the panel of refs, and pay them (?) Or perhaps not.

Anyway if its a collective thing I am OK with it, if the ref is working for one school, then it doesn't seem right, there's an obvious conflict of interest.

The top tier schools request L5 or L6 "in test from Group" or even sometimes a Panel Ref from RFU.

The majority of matches being L6 and below, most at L8, will go to their local Society, except some in Home Counties where some schools still use London Society for historical reasons.

As I said in some cases some schools go to an ex Elite referee (in the cases I know about but there may be others) for 1st XV special matches.

No it is not how the Premiership works, the RFU are contracted to provide a safe and competent panel of elite referees, and they select, train, assess and develop those referees. The PRL have no vote or influence on selection that I am aware of.

TheBFG
12-11-14, 16:11
, except some in Home Counties where some schools still use London Society for historical reasons.


an idea what those are, we have a 2nd tier private school on our patch tht pay in excess of £150.00 for a London ref :shrug: and what they get sent can be variable in ability :wink: (not my words!)

crossref
12-11-14, 17:11
an idea what those are, we have a 2nd tier private school on our patch tht pay in excess of £150.00 for a London ref :shrug: and what they get sent can be variable in ability :wink: (not my words!)

I'll do it for £140

Simon Thomas
12-11-14, 17:11
an idea what those are, we have a 2nd tier private school on our patch tht pay in excess of £150.00 for a London ref :shrug: and what they get sent can be variable in ability :wink: (not my words!)

Yes I do know many of the schools and which county/Society is involved (Somerzet is not of course a Home County :biggrin:)

I assume you refer to the B or S schools, not M which is 1st tier. The S school had an ex-England Grand Slam coach as DOR for some years.

TheBFG
13-11-14, 11:11
I'll do it for £140

no disrespect mate but might be a little beyond your reffin ability just yet :wink:

TheBFG
13-11-14, 11:11
Yes I do know many of the schools and which county/Society is involved (Somerzet is not of course a Home County :biggrin:)

I assume you refer to the B or S schools, not M which is 1st tier. The S school had an ex-England Grand Slam coach as DOR for some years.

Yep that's the one, coach there now is an ex Bath/Bristol player and it was he that contacted me to ask a few questions as there was some inconsistency with the refs they were getting!

crossref
13-11-14, 11:11
I am wondering if there is an opportunity for someone to distintermediate this, and come up with an Uber style solution.

It would be easy to set up an online system, similar to Kabbee or Uber where
- clubs put up the games they need referees for, and referees put their hands up to do it.
- and ref advertise availability and clubs snap them up
- obviously there would be a match fee involved.
- just like Uber or Kabbee there would be quality controls and feeback in both directions

It would drive the Societies incandescent - I can hear Simon harrumphing now -


The thing is : it's cheap to set up, as it's all been done before, there are 1000s of systems out there that unite buyers and sellers of a service, with feedback / qa controls.

Browner
13-11-14, 11:11
Yep that's the one, coach there now is an ex Bath/Bristol player and it was he that contacted me to ask a few questions as there was some inconsistency with the refs they were getting!

Next time charge him a consultancy fee, it will help lead the rugby community into recognising the value of our expert service !

Shelflife
13-11-14, 13:11
This week I did a schools match, 240km round trip, left home at 11am and got back at approx 5.30pm. For that I will get about €75 (£60) for my troubles, not even a cup of tea or a sandwich offered.

I believe that our ref society appreciates the effort that we put in, I think that the IRFU are taking us for a ride, we pay €25 membership every year, for that we get socks, shorts ,jersey and tracksuit, not every year but its not exactly plentiful. We get an odd night out at our local clubs game and an odd pint at that.

We as refs provide a wonderful service, As Browner said, we give up our time on match days and also going to meetings,workshops and training usually on our own and reading law books and going online to sites such as this in order to deliver on the day. In return we get 31c (25p) a km and thats it. Some clubs appreciate you, most dont imo, some will make sure that your dressing room is clean, others use it as a store room and I have even seen the proverbial kitchen sink stored in a changing room.
Some will look after you and give you a bit of grub, some will hardly acknowledge you after the game esp if they lose.

If the refs were to pull their services for a few weeks the governing bodies would really see the time and effort put in by the refs and their associations.

Im not looking for payment, Id like if the travel expenses were upped to a fair level, id like if we could get equipment (flags,whistles,boots,cards,watches assoc shirts and ties) every so often as well. We are expected to provide as near a professional service without payment. Id also like the clubs to ensure that clean tidy dressing rooms and after match refreshments

I enjoy reffing, it shouldnt cost me money to provide others a service, all I want is to be made feel a little bit appreciated.

Simon Thomas
13-11-14, 13:11
I'll do it for £140

250 mile round trip at 45 p per mile and a £38 match fee sounds about right to me.

Unfortunately until you get to a 7+1 grade with London you are unlikely to be appointed.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
13-11-14, 14:11
This week I did a schools match, 240km round trip, left home at 11am and got back at approx 5.30pm. For that I will get about €75 (£60) for my troubles, not even a cup of tea or a sandwich offered.

I believe that our ref society appreciates the effort that we put in, I think that the IRFU are taking us for a ride, we pay €25 membership every year, for that we get socks, shorts ,jersey and tracksuit, not every year but its not exactly plentiful. We get an odd night out at our local clubs game and an odd pint at that.

We as refs provide a wonderful service, As Browner said, we give up our time on match days and also going to meetings,workshops and training usually on our own and reading law books and going online to sites such as this in order to deliver on the day. In return we get 31c (25p) a km and thats it. Some clubs appreciate you, most dont imo, some will make sure that your dressing room is clean, others use it as a store room and I have even seen the proverbial kitchen sink stored in a changing room.
Some will look after you and give you a bit of grub, some will hardly acknowledge you after the game esp if they lose.

If the refs were to pull their services for a few weeks the governing bodies would really see the time and effort put in by the refs and their associations.

Im not looking for payment, Id like if the travel expenses were upped to a fair level, id like if we could get equipment (flags,whistles,boots,cards,watches assoc shirts and ties) every so often as well. We are expected to provide as near a professional service without payment. Id also like the clubs to ensure that clean tidy dressing rooms and after match refreshments

I enjoy reffing, it shouldnt cost me money to provide others a service, all I want is to be made feel a little bit appreciated.

If I went more than a few weeks getting put in storeroom, not getting fed, not being bought a drink I'd be off.

Fortunately that sort of hospitality is not something I recognise in Yorkshire or elsewhere when I've ventured over the border.

We pay £10pa and have recently been provided with free shirts these last few years - previously we had to buy all our stuff.
Dress shirts, ties etc have to be purchased.

crossref
13-11-14, 14:11
i am often in a refs changing room that looks like a storeroom!
rarely get referee showers -- normally showering with the players

but I almost always am offered a pint and something to eat after the game :-)

Simon Thomas
13-11-14, 14:11
I am wondering if there is an opportunity for someone to distintermediate this, and come up with an Uber style solution.

It would be easy to set up an online system, similar to Kabbee or Uber where
- clubs put up the games they need referees for, and referees put their hands up to do it.
- and ref advertise availability and clubs snap them up
- obviously there would be a match fee involved.
- just like Uber or Kabbee there would be quality controls and feeback in both directions

It would drive the Societies incandescent - I can hear Simon harrumphing now -


The thing is : it's cheap to set up, as it's all been done before, there are 1000s of systems out there that unite buyers and sellers of a service, with feedback / qa controls.

Certainly not harrumphing nor would Societies be incandescent.

There are already email clusters where "schools refs" are approached direct. So good idea but it has limited appeal I suggest. Also schools are only going to pay travel and a small fee (£10-15) for a non Society Referee for the 3rd XVs or U15s, and only then if there is no staff member or pupil to referee. We have 8 Young Officials who referee clubs on Sunday morning and schools mid week at u15, U14 etc - they are not appointed by the Society but we send mentors and advisers to watch them. In one case a 17 yr old is now doing School 1st XV at level 9 (not the top schools like PGS, KES, etc) as Society appointments and in the new year he will do his first adult match under very close supervision and we hope will develop fast, as we have had in the past with exceptional Young Officials.

It is the 1st XV matches where the grade level usually means a Society appointment is required (except for ex elite refs for hire) or for the U18 and U15 national schools cups where it is a comp regulation.

Appointing to Schools on mid-week and Saturday's can be a nightmare with a conflict with BUCS matches on Wed and adult league on Sat. We do appoint high grade refs as these players are the future of the Game, and we are especially supportive of state schools and those who have recently introduced rugby working with RDO and local club youth sections.

At the lower school ages it is often a "club ref", or an internal referee. Hampshire Society and HRFU have worked hard with our leading Rugby schools to get them to hold ELRA (now Level2 referee) courses and develop staff and pupil referees. In fact Jonnie Wilkinson's alma mater Lord Wandsworth recently received a RFU award for the work they have done. this and working with the RDO, RFU Training staff, and the Society are crucial to ensure quality standards, the latest information is available, etc.

If you have independent refs doing their own thing they could fall behind the performance curves and get into bad habits, etc. Even with Society Refs there is inconsistency as BFG hilighted. With the crossref uber type service who managed it, who checks quality standards, etc ?

Simon Thomas
13-11-14, 14:11
i am often in a refs changing room that looks like a storeroom!
rarely get referee showers -- normally showering with the players

but I almost always am offered a pint and something to eat after the game :-)

In Hampshire it is varied - most schools invite the referee for tea and sandwiches which are laid on, others just say "thank you sir". I have never been given a beer at a school match.

As for changing and showering, our adult referees are 100% segregated, or if not available, we arrive and leave in track suit with much muttering, and subsequent emails - but some state schools just do not have the facilities. The Society, HRFU, and as hole. Union are fully integrated (current HRFU Prez is a Society Referee/MO and immediate past Chairman of Schools RFU). Child Welfare is paramount and strictly applied in all our schools and youth sections of clubs.

crossref
13-11-14, 14:11
With the crossref uber type service who managed it, who checks quality standards, etc ?

Well, I think similar to Uber or Check-a-trade they do QA in three basic ways.
1- where a provider wants to claiming an actual qualification they check it (ELRA certificate, minicab license)
2- objective measurable statistics to build credibility (time on site, number of trips, jobs, reliability rating (did they turn up?) )
3- subjective feedback ratings, in both directions. passengers rate drivers, drivers rate passengers

What would be needed centrally is a reliable way to grade the games, so that the operators of get-a-ref could form a picture of the level of games the ref is operating at, and assess the feedback accordingly -- so that you could see a reg is getitng an average 4* rating at level 8 games.

Of course none of this is problem free (but neither is the current system viz the variation in LSRFUR refs supplid to the school) but we know from Uber, Air BnB and the like a feedback based system does work.

What it does need is volume though. There may not be enough games/refs for it get going and be sustainable. In fact I am certain there isn't.

Bunniksider
13-11-14, 14:11
.....I have never been given a beer at a school match......

You get a beer at Rossall School in Lancashire. Well you did in the 80's (I was a player then not a ref.) Highlight of the year for the lower 6th

dave_clark
13-11-14, 15:11
In Hampshire it is varied - most schools invite the referee for tea and sandwiches which are laid on, others just say "thank you sir". I have never been given a beer at a school match.

As for changing and showering, our adult referees are 100% segregated, or if not available, we arrive and leave in track suit with much muttering, and subsequent emails - but some state schools just do not have the facilities. The Society, HRFU, and as hole. Union are fully integrated (current HRFU Prez is a Society Referee/MO and immediate past Chairman of Schools RFU). Child Welfare is paramount and strictly applied in all our schools and youth sections of clubs.

not sure if crossref was referring to school games when he said he showers with the players!

(although appreciate this is in the U13 - U19 section)

Browner
13-11-14, 15:11
250 mile round trip at 45 p per mile and a £38 match fee sounds about right to me.

Unfortunately until you get to a 7+1 grade with London you are unlikely to be appointed.

Is petrol more expensive depending on region ??

crossref
13-11-14, 16:11
not sure if crossref was referring to school games when he said he showers with the players!

(although appreciate this is in the U13 - U19 section)

oops!
No, I had forgotten that - for some reason - this is in the u13-u19 section!!

No, of course, when I'm refereeing on a Sunday morning I am always prepared for the likelihood of not getting a shower for that reason. Even at my own club, which I love, we have no referee's shower :( so on a Sunday game it's quick spray of Sure Extra Dry, change shirt, tracksuit on, into the bar. At least I get to the bar quickly :)

We do have a ref changing room, and it's usually free of junk. It's actually too small for junk !

Browner
13-11-14, 16:11
We pay £10pa and have recently been provided with free shirts these last few years - previously we had to buy all our stuff.
Dress shirts, ties etc have to be purchased.

Conceptually, why should any fee be payable by any referee? ( if it secures membership then a nominal amount)

Why shouldnt all costs of running a 'bank of referees' should be borne by the Users or the RFU

" Dear Browner,
Congratulations on becoming a Qualified referee, here is your badge & License. Included in this box is all the equipment you will need to represent the RFU in facilitating the grassroots game, in simple terms without independent and fair minded referees this sport ceases to exist. We need mass participation at clubs to drive ticket sales and all the commercial revenues that emanate from this involvement, and providing referees to even the lowest level club or juniors helps the RFU gain such huge penetration.

You will find an order sheet for your RFU badged 'Referee attire' set, send it back and the RFU will ensure you look the as professional as the Pro's on the TV.
Waterproof, Tracksuit, Shirt-Shorts-Socksx2, Multi functional watch, whistle, cards, scorepad, flags, Waterproof folder containing RFU regs, water bottle etc...if you genuinely need it then we will ensure you have it!

Also enclosed is the scale of referee fees, you will note that they increase upwards as you climb the refereeing ladder towards eventual full time professional , the reason for this incremental scaling is because the RFU recognises the increased effort and commitment toward training/coaching and personal fitness that referees make. Your progress upward orc downward will be managed by a dedicated team of assessors/match observers etc.

Please review the enclosed document that maps the pathway to the professional game, both in terms of refereeing but also TMO & citing roles, as you can see many opportunities exist in this modern and expanding professional ' officiating' code.

Don't concern yourself on how clubs will afford these costs, not only do they not have a choice ( at u14 or above ) but the RFU Employees (via RDOs) have a detailed suite of income raising suggestions to give any club concerned at how to pay for the referee services that societies provide. We have introduced a feedback system to allow referees to rate all the hosting experiences of the clubs they visit, we will publish the whole league table to highlight both 'brilliant ' or dire performers, in order to drive up standards generally.

In short, we are demonstrating the commitment and value that the referees bring to this sport , this is the most significant part of our Legacy 2015 campaign, Aspire to be as good as you can, thank you for rising to the challenge of this immensly complicated yet immensly enjoyable sport.

Welcome to 'Team England' Browner !

R.Hon Ernie Fortune
CEO, President & Lions Tourist etc ...
RFU :D
(Formerly a volunteer referee & administrator, ie... before the game turned professional)
Po Corporate Box no . 1FABCHAP, RFUHQ. Twickers.

Phil E
13-11-14, 16:11
I have never been given a beer at a school match.

You obviously didn't go to a good school :wink:

Warwick School, Rugby School, beer and a curry after the game.
King Edwards, King Henry's, tea and maybe cake.
All the rest........seeya!

TheBFG
13-11-14, 17:11
I have never been given a beer at a school match.

I've a school match on Saturday, there will be beer afterwards :wink: that said most of the school matches I've done there is always a beer to be had, the teachers pinch it from the 6th form common room fridge!

crossref
13-11-14, 17:11
Conceptually, why should any fee be payable by any referee? ( if it secures membership then a nominal amount)


(I didn't read the rest - too long!)

At the grass roots level the conceptual argument is that all the players are paying to play, and buy lots of their own kit, why shouldn't the referee, really.

At a kids clb game all the first aiders, coaches, team managers etc are voluntering their time to give the kids a game of rugby. why should the referee alone be paid.

Of course at the pro level, or at a top tier private schools it's the other way round, why should the ref be the only person NOT being paid.

and there's a difficult middle ground.

SimonSmith
13-11-14, 20:11
Beer at the Leys. At least there was in 1997 :)

Simon Thomas
13-11-14, 21:11
Is petrol more expensive depending on region ??

Yes and even within Hampshire it varies on location, and if it is a motorway / trunk road you pay a premium.

The whole petrol pricing calculation seems to be very complicated and in some cases subjective. In my village we pay a premium of 4-5 p higher than I can buy petrol in Eastleigh or edge of Southampton.

When I go west to Somerset / Bristol petrol is always a lot cheaper than at home.

Simon Thomas
13-11-14, 21:11
Also enclosed is the scale of referee fees, you will note that they increase upwards as you climb the refereeing ladder towards eventual full time professional , the reason for this incremental scaling is because the RFU recognises the increased effort and commitment toward training/coaching and personal fitness that referees make. Your progress upward or downward will be managed by a dedicated team of assessors/match observers.

And of course the Assessors, Match Observers, Referee Coaches, Video filmers will also in this new world be paid again at increasing rates as we go up the levels reflecting the (usually) increased time and commitment as you go up the levels.

Simon Thomas
13-11-14, 22:11
I was talking about the schools I have reffed 2000 to date where there is no beer served.

At school in 1974-75 we had shandy served after the 1st XV matches served in half pint silver tankards for us and the opposition, and I think it was similar on our circuit - Dulwich, Kings Canterbury, Felstead, Uppingham, Hailebury, Wellington, etc

Simon Thomas
13-11-14, 22:11
(I didn't read the rest - too long!)

At the grass roots level the conceptual argument is that all the players are paying to play, and buy lots of their own kit, why shouldn't the referee, really.

At a kids clb game all the first aiders, coaches, team managers etc are voluntering their time to give the kids a game of rugby. why should the referee alone be paid.

Of course at the pro level, or at a top tier private schools it's the other way round, why should the ref be the only person NOT being paid.

and there's a difficult middle ground.

Panel and Group refs get all their kit supplied by RFU.

menace
14-11-14, 01:11
All, many of you have raised valid point to both sides.

If you're interested in how our association went about getting this issue on the radar and making significant steps foward, PM me with your personal email address (no I'm not from Kenya and I don't need your bank account details).

Browner
14-11-14, 04:11
I was talking about the schools I have reffed 2000 to date where there is no beer served.

At school in 1974-75 we had shandy served after the 1st XV matches served in half pint silver tankards for us and the opposition, and I think it was similar on our circuit - Dulwich, Kings Canterbury, Felstead, Uppingham, Hailebury, Wellington, etc

Such practice would be barred under rfu regs nowadays, so no shandy for U18s at these schools only coke!

Simon Thomas
14-11-14, 07:11
Such practice would be barred under rfu regs nowadays, so no shandy for U18s at these schools only coke!

At schools it is nothing to do with RFU as their matches come under ERFSU (Schools Union) - what RFU Regs do you refer to ?

The consumption of alcohol by minors is a legal and self-regulatory issue, and serving shandy, beer or wine to 17 and 18 year olds in a private situation is not illegal.

TheBFG
14-11-14, 10:11
so no shandy for U18s at these schools only coke!

yeah some of the private schools around here provide some "good shit" (apparently :wink: )

Drift
14-11-14, 10:11
$30 a game, flat rate across the metro games in Melbourne. $50 for the ones we have to travel a little further for, $80 for places like Albury.

Drift
14-11-14, 10:11
Not many senior clubs do that here. They're too tight to throw you a sausage off their BBQ! If you step up to their canteen they're super quick to put their hand out and take your cash! (About half junior clubs feed and water you).

Sometimes you just feel like you're just being used! And they wonder why they find it hard to retain refs for more than 3 or 4 years. They just get jack of being screwed.

A lot of the clubs I have good rapports with I will pre-pay for a 6 pack of beers to have in the changing rooms straight after the game and most of the time they won't take my cash. However I will always make sure I will pay for some food and beer after my debrief, I get paid $30 for whatever game I do so 4 times last year which is 12 minutes round trip from my house so it definitely didn't cost me that much money to go there.

Adam
14-11-14, 13:11
A lot of the clubs I have good rapports with I will pre-pay for a 6 pack of beers to have in the changing rooms straight after the game and most of the time they won't take my cash. However I will always make sure I will pay for some food and beer after my debrief, I get paid $30 for whatever game I do so 4 times last year which is 12 minutes round trip from my house so it definitely didn't cost me that much money to go there.

So in Melbourne that would have cost you $100!!!

It is true, Drift is very good, even got me a beer after his game when I popped by!

Shelflife
14-11-14, 14:11
(I didn't read the rest - too long!)

At the grass roots level the conceptual argument is that all the players are paying to play, and buy lots of their own kit, why shouldn't the referee, really.

At a kids clb game all the first aiders, coaches, team managers etc are voluntering their time to give the kids a game of rugby. why should the referee alone be paid.

Of course at the pro level, or at a top tier private schools it's the other way round, why should the ref be the only person NOT being paid.

and there's a difficult middle ground.

I understand your pov crossref, id offer the view that the ref has to travel to all of his games, usually on his own, will train on his own learn laws on his own and if hes lucky will only be hated by one team at the end of a match.

Its a bit of a lonely life for a ref, the players ,managers (many of whom are paid now) first aiders volunteers are part of a big club and can celebrate victory or lick their wounds together, refs dont have that high or elation in their game (a sense of satisfaction in having had a good game maybe) but no high fives and rounds of drinks at the bar when you win a big game.

Its a hard road in the middle of a wet and freezing winter game when the game is a poor one and the players wont listen and the cards come out, its not your fault but both teams hate you and its a two hour journey home in damp clothes because they forgot to turn on your shower and your not in the mood to take more comments in the bar, so you travel home hungry.

Its not always that gloomy :biggrin:, but it can be a lonely road, as i said earlier im not looking to be paid per match, but a decent milage rate, some properly fitting gear, a hot shower and a cuppa and a sandwich after every game isnt alot to ask for.

menace
26-04-15, 12:04
Bump.....

It can be done, it's not insurmountable to get reimbursement (payments).
But before I reveal what's happened in my neck of the woods..


(I didn't read the rest - too long!)

At the grass roots level the conceptual argument is that all the players are paying to play, and buy lots of their own kit, why shouldn't the referee, really.

At a kids clb game all the first aiders, coaches, team managers etc are voluntering their time to give the kids a game of rugby. why should the referee alone be paid.

Of course at the pro level, or at a top tier private schools it's the other way round, why should the ref be the only person NOT being paid.

and there's a difficult middle ground.
I'd address this by saying that those volunteers are directly contributing their efforts to their partners/family/kids life (and their friends)...it's helping their family members chosen club to help give them opportunities in sport.... That's why I volunteer to help my sons chosen club (I'm currently his coach....though pity so many other parents in the team and club are so apathetic to help!).
Not so when it's the referee....
But that's my opinion.



All, many of you have raised valid point to both sides.

If you're interested in how our association went about getting this issue on the radar and making significant steps foward, PM me with your personal email address (no I'm not from Kenya and I don't need your bank account details).

Now for the developments in my part of the woods....after 2 years of lobbying and negotiations our association members are now receiving match payments, though in my opinion it's still just partial cost recovery/reimbursement. (Previous to that there was a further 2 years of internal lobbying and strategic thinking and approach to the issue. )

What it means is that 'user pays' is important in this day and age, and can be made to work. Yes there were struggles, obstructions a dissenters.

It's not a lot of money, and only added a nominal amount to their season fees (in the order of less than $10 per person).
Here are the details of what we will be receiving.
http://www.actrra.org.au/referee-payments.html

Browner
26-04-15, 16:04
For clarity menace, are travelling expenses ( say distance x $rate ) additionally recovered ?

menace
27-04-15, 01:04
For clarity menace, are travelling expenses ( say distance x $rate ) additionally recovered ?

Yes, travel expenses is additional. But you only receive those expenses if you travel outside of the ACT/state. Most games are within the state and will usually will be upto 25km one way. So you're only getting travel expenses when you're travelling more than 100km round trip.

viper492
12-05-15, 03:05
Menace, I think you (and others) hit the nail on the head when you said payments bring referees into it.

I probably never would have picked up refereeing if not for match payments and, having just moved down to ACT, probably wouldn't continue reffing if there weren't any... I love doing it, but without the incentive to put up with those absolute tosser coaches (one of whom I probably am these days) and (sometimes) crowds , I wouldn't be refereeing... Admittedly coaching now makes it difficult and the age group I'd be reffing is probably the one I'm coaching in but there's then that slight incentive to do lower age groups and different abilities where the rugby itself isn't as enjoyable as more skillful older juniors (currently only ref juniors) :)