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Owen Bisto Taylor
22-03-14, 20:03
Basically, in my game today there was a flash point in that there was a little bit of pushing as shoving (as far as I could see) in a Colts game. Now i played advantage to black, and then subsequently reversed the following penalty to black after a white penalty due to the reaction of White 8 (who was 'fighting' with black 13)... both players received a yellow card due to their reaction (which as far as I could see, did not see throw any punches). Following the game i was approached by a parent who called me (paraphrasing this) a disgrace for turning a 'blind eye' to fighting, and then after getting changed and asking if he was alright now subsequently told me to " f*** off, before i lose my wrag with you"... as this is the first (and hopefully last) experience of abuse, what is the best way to approach this, as nobody was willing to give me his name, and the club in question we're lovely and showed as much hospitality as i have been used to from them. Cheers :frown:

dave_clark
22-03-14, 22:03
repeat the entire conversation, verbatim, to your society. they will have dealt with people like this before.

OB..
22-03-14, 22:03
Talk to your society disciplinary officer. The behaviour is unacceptable.

Even if he was from the home club and they were otherwise brilliant, they should not condone this. If he was from the opposition, then they may need to be contacted. Your society will know if there has been any previous, but they won't know about this one unless you tell them.

Simon Thomas
23-03-14, 01:03
Tell your Society and they will deal with it in the most appropriate manner. They have seen and heard it all before !

Don't just ignore it as the next referee May gave the same, or worse.

menace
23-03-14, 01:03
Basically, in my game today there was a flash point in that there was a little bit of pushing as shoving (as far as I could see) in a Colts game. Now i played advantage to black, and then subsequently reversed the following penalty to black after a white penalty due to the reaction of White 8 (who was 'fighting' with black 13)... both players received a yellow card due to their reaction (which as far as I could see, did not see throw any punches). Following the game i was approached by a parent who called me (paraphrasing this) a disgrace for turning a 'blind eye' to fighting, and then after getting changed and asking if he was alright now subsequently told me to " f*** off, before i lose my wrag with you"... as this is the first (and hopefully last) experience of abuse, what is the best way to approach this, as nobody was willing to give me his name, and the club in question we're lovely and showed as much hospitality as i have been used to from them. Cheers :frown:

Not condoning his behaviour, and just playing devil's advocate, but why did you go back for a second go? Was the first conversation abusive? If it was just calling you a disgrace, then I don't consider that abuse, but just a muppet with an opinion. (Was there anymore to it or was their actions intimidating?). Whereas the 2nd conversation clearly was abusive, but why did you go back to him? Poking a cornered and angry cat is just asking for trouble, and you got it.

Personally I don't think it's a good idea to go back to a person who offered you an unsavoury opinion, just report it if it's abusive.

Ps. Unfortunately it will not be the last time you'll be abused...so be prepared for it.

Owen Bisto Taylor
23-03-14, 02:03
Ironically menace, I didnt really have a choice as he was stood at the door to the clubhouse... and I really wanted a beer, so no choice but to walk past him

TNT88
23-03-14, 02:03
That's got to be the most hypocritical ref abuse ever.

Owen Bisto Taylor
23-03-14, 03:03
That's got to be the most hypocritical ref abuse ever.

Hows that?

TNT88
23-03-14, 04:03
Having a go at you for turning a blind eye to violence, and then telling you to **** off because he's about to lose his tempter with you?

Maybe next time he'll come out with, "oi ref, why'd you turn a blind eye to all the f*cken swearing?"

menace
23-03-14, 05:03
Ironically menace, I didnt really have a choice as he was stood at the door to the clubhouse... and I really wanted a beer, so no choice but to walk past him

Ok. Fair enough..but don't talk to him nor give the ****** eye contact. If he's at the club house door and is doing that to wait for you and intimidate you and have another uninvited crack at you...then definitely report that.

Also, what a piss poor club for no one to giving you his name...they're just closing ranks and that is just as bad IMO. It shows the club does not respect that the referee needs to be respected.

Blackberry
23-03-14, 09:03
Hi OBT, don't for one moment think that this is normal, for every angry muppet who doesn't understand how rugby works there are hundreds, no, hundreds of thousands who love the game, understand its morals, and appreciate what you do.

We must always report these incidents as it allows the societies to build a picture, you add to the jigsaw and adding your piece will not only send a clear message that the rugby culture will be protected, but it might just also complete the picture and allow serious action to be taken.

Something else hampers us at times like this, we sort of feel partly responsible. AGGGHH!!!! Listen, there are 100 ways of dealing with any new event, so 99 of them are always not as good as the 100th. If the way you dealt with it is in the top 20, and you use it as a chance to learn, you are doing fine. Do not for a moment think "Well, he's out of order but maybe I could have whistled sooner" or something similar. His attitude is a threat to the game, while your handling of the situation was at least as good as we have a right to expect, probably even better.

Apologies for repeating a story, but I had to put up with a similar muppet at a national cup colts game, sent him from the field of play, received subsequent abuse in the clubhouse, and reported him. His club graded my refereeing as "excellent" for that match, he received a substantial ban, and I discovered the rest of the management team and the supporters were delighted that he his actions had finally been curtailed.

I reffed their senior team later on and they treated me like fragile glass, I felt a bit mean to be honest.

FightOrFlight
24-03-14, 02:03
Sadly this is becoming more common. Personally I groan when I get assigned an underage game(up to 19s anyway).

It seems the game means more to the parents than the kids and game after game you get some ill informed arsehole on the sideline with his cup of take away coffee having his say on all decisions. I did a 15s game a few weeks back and they were all out in force. Every dropped ball was a knock on no matter how far back it went. Captains were being dispatched with stupid question and observations from ill informed coaches and parents and it was all just becoming a mess!
From a kick off the ball went in to in goal and was grounded by a defender. I went back for the scrum on half way to shouts of "ref that's a 22...what are you doing?"
I YCed a kid for constant dissent and when he returned from the bin the coach said to him "tell him they are offside and he needs to watch it".....I mean seriously... If ever it seemed like a coach wanted a red card it was there.

Sadly in Ireland it seems to me that clubs are doing little real work to combat it. The society can try but it it is hard to gain traction. For me it is simple. If Bob shows up with his kid and is always giving hassle then as most clubs are private property Bob gets a 5 week ban from the premises. If he comes back and keeps it up it's 10 and if he keeps it up then he is out forever. If clubs get hard on it then it may help to really cut it down. In senior games people have their say but that is manageable. Adults will not be as influenced by adult opinion as kids. Many times out of control adults pull and pretty good hearted game down with their carry on. If you are 15 and adults are shouting abuse then you are likely to get wound up too as it transfers to the team. Adults are less like sheep in that respect.

beckett50
24-03-14, 02:03
As others have, you must report it to the 'Powers that be'.

Toby Warren
24-03-14, 07:03
Report it. His behaviour is unaccpetable.


Then as with things in life good and bad reflect upon see if there's anything positives you can take or any areas that you'd handle differently.

ctrainor
24-03-14, 09:03
and of course never ref a game at that club again until the matter is dealt with.

Daftmedic
24-03-14, 10:03
Am I the only one who would of jabbed him on the jaw?

davidgh
24-03-14, 10:03
This is hardly Ref abuse, just a bloke being rude to you, you had already got changed and were in the club house.

When does your role as the Ref protected by TLOTG end?

Unacceptable, rude, report it, but a lower scale of issue than abuse on the pitch

RobLev
24-03-14, 10:03
This is hardly Ref abuse, just a bloke being rude to you, you had already got changed and were in the club house.

When does your role as the Ref protected by TLOTG end?

Unacceptable, rude, report it, but a lower scale of issue than abuse on the pitch

I'm not a ref, but disagree. If the parent had left it on the pitch, then it might be lower end; but direct physical threats of violence after the match are not. Remember also that OBT is a student himself; so far as the parent is concerned, he was talking to a kid.

Dixie
24-03-14, 12:03
OK, let's break it down.

Firstly, whatever happened on the field is irrelevant to what people choose to say to you afterwards. In my mind, the only interesting aspect of the on-pitch scenario is that the parent was likely to be the dad of one of the involved players.

Secondly, per Menace:


Was the first conversation abusive? If it was just calling you a disgrace, then I don't consider that abuse

Aussie society is well-know to be rude, boorish and uncultured. {:wink:} Over here in Blighty, even in the North, we have higher expectations of our fellow man. Calling you a disgrace is most definitely abusive.

Thirdly, I think menace has a point - you may have had to get past the guy to get into the bar, but you didn't ahve to engage him in conversation...

after getting changed and asking if he was alright now subsequently told me to " f*** off

However, that's just a preventative measure. The fact that you did engage him in conversation is, IMO, to your credit and entirely in tune with rugby's ethos. You battle like hell for 80 minutes on the pitch than come together as fellow afficionados in the bar. So the fact that you could have skulked off and avoided the situation does not let the guy off the second instance of abuse.

Both instances need to be reported on the same referee abuse form, completed in consultation with your Society. Rugby has a developing problem with abuse (particularly at youth level), and is well aware of the need to nip it in the bud to prevent the sort of referee drain that football experiences. But the authorities can't do that unless unacceptable instances are reported.

Fouth, think hard about how it came about that no-one would give you a name. Did you ask a coach or a blazer from the offending club? If so, they are equally complicit and the powers-that-be need to know that the club is not prepared to act to deal with malfeasance among its memebrship and support. But if you just asked a busy barman and got a shrug, then perhaps he simply didn't know.

Fifth - looking at your post - are you at the same uni as Cody? If so take heart - he's come on in leaps and bounds since his first kindergarten-like efforts here. :)

Dixie
24-03-14, 12:03
This is hardly Ref abuse, just a bloke being rude to you, you had already got changed and were in the club house.

When does your role as the Ref protected by TLOTG end?

Unacceptable, rude, report it, but a lower scale of issue than abuse on the pitch Wholly incorrect. We worry about this because it leads referees to decide to do other things with their weekends than put up with rude gits at rugby clubs. That damages the game. It is immaterial whether it happens on the pitch, in the bar or when walking to work the following Wednesday. Your role as the referee extends to any time when anyone wants to beat you up about it - physically or verbally.

Bunniksider
24-03-14, 13:03
Wholly incorrect. We worry about this because it leads referees to decide to do other things with their weekends than put up with rude gits at rugby clubs. That damages the game. It is immaterial whether it happens on the pitch, in the bar or when walking to work the following Wednesday. Your role as the referee extends to any time when anyone wants to beat you up about it - physically or verbally.

From Manchester & District Referee Society's website:

Abuse is defined by the IRB as

... Individual perception of personal degradation be it mental or physical, before, during or after the game, including but not limited to verbal or physical assault, intimidatory conduct or racial or sexual harassment...

Abuse may be from players, coaches, team managers or spectators but Referees must ensure that what they consider to be abusive conforms to the above definition before submitting and Abuse Form to the Society. And they must remember that abuse from a player must also occur off the pitch, after the final whistle (see below).

Referees should also familiarise themselves with the Society Complaints Protocol which is described in detail on Page 21 of the Handbook. Examples of what constitutes grounds for complaint (including Abuse of Officials) are shown in paragraph 4. However, these have to read in conjunction with the provisions of paragraph 5 i.e.:

... It is important to understand that this Protocol will only deal with off the field matters - on pitch incidents must be dealt with under the Laws of the Game.

In short, if a player is shown a Red Card for abuse during the course of the game, this will be dealt with by the County Disciplinary Committee in the normal way on receipt of the sending off form. A separate Abuse form is not to be completed or submitted either to the Society or the County Disciplinary Committee.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
24-03-14, 14:03
One of the bigwigs in EMRURS is also a bigwig at the club in question. Easier or more difficult to broach the subject?

Either way I advised OBT to report the incident(s) via his Society and let them take it from there.

I had 6 years of refereeing junior rugby and all my worst experiences (albeit not many) as a refereee came from junior matches.

From my conversations with him he appears to have enjoyed the match however it only takes one k**bh**d, one minute to spoil a whole afternoon.

FightOrFlight
24-03-14, 14:03
This is hardly Ref abuse, just a bloke being rude to you, you had already got changed and were in the club house.

When does your role as the Ref protected by TLOTG end?

Unacceptable, rude, report it, but a lower scale of issue than abuse on the pitch

No matter when or where it happens if you are out on duty in your capacity as a referee you are a Branch/Union official(and a volunteer at that) and should be treated the same. If an elite ref was out doing a HEC game(and being paid for his time) and he was approached by a member of one of the clubs on club property and verbally abused and threatened with violence there would be swift and decisive action taken. As a referee of any grade you are entitled to the same protection.

Browner
24-03-14, 14:03
Am I the only one who would of jabbed him on the jaw?

A dangerous road to take, that does not help other referees. Stay on the moral high ground, retaliation is a battle we won't win.

So as much as I wanted to , or could!....... I wouldn't.

ctrainor
24-03-14, 16:03
Has anyone got a link to a downloadable RFU Referee abuse form please couldn't find one on my own society site nor the RFU site.
One of my friends, 2nd team manager, went away this week with his team, ended up reffing the game and suffered some abuse which, I'm told has him questioning his future involvement in our game.
I don't know the full details yet but would like to have the correct form
thanks

Phil E
24-03-14, 17:03
Here you go......

http://www.warwickref.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2013-14-SOCIETY-MATCH-OFFICIAL-ABUSE-REPORT.pdf

Dixie
24-03-14, 18:03
One of my friends, 2nd team manager, went away this week with his team, ended up reffing the game and suffered some abuse which, I'm told has him questioning his future involvement in our game. The biter bit! I wonder if he's rethinking his own touchline contribution?

menace
25-03-14, 01:03
The biter bit! I wonder if he's rethinking his own touchline contribution?

Exactly what I was thinking. 'Walk in mans shoe..' And all that ..

Simon Thomas
25-03-14, 08:03
This is hardly Ref abuse, just a bloke being rude to you, you had already got changed and were in the club house.

When does your role as the Ref protected by TLOTG end?

Unacceptable, rude, report it, but a lower scale of issue than abuse on the pitch

I disagree. From the moment of arrival to when you depart any referee should be treated with respect and not abused.

andyscott
25-03-14, 10:03
Am I the only one who would of jabbed him on the jaw?

Sometimes I wish someone would just slot these dickheads.

I was once a spectator at a game and a referees wife spoke to a member of the supporters who was awfully abusive and said something along the lines of. "If you continue slagging my fella off I will tell him and he will knock F%#k out of you when the game is finished"
He shut up pretty quickly :)

But no they are not worth it, unless extremely threatened and no other way to diffuse the situation.

Usually these people are thick and quite easy to shut up with some quick retort ;)

Daftmedic
25-03-14, 11:03
There was a certain degree of humour but I always find bullies tend to back down if challenged.

davidgh
25-03-14, 13:03
Dixie, Buniksider et al - many thanks for lots of clarification - very helpful stuff

I also didn't realise that this is a young ref and though it doesn't change the law, it makes the reality much harder to swallow

I also agree re keeping refs in the game, I have had a couple of bad cases of abuse and support strong action both by refs and particularly in cases of racial abuse .... call the police! That shuts them up - forever

Book the *******!

Browner
25-03-14, 13:03
The biter bit! I wonder if he's rethinking his own touchline contribution?

Don't forget, this manager might be one of the "supporters" of referees ........ They're not all blaggards

, the manager of the u15's I coach is 100% pro ref. Even when his output doesn't match our expectation!

RobLev
25-03-14, 15:03
Exactly what I was thinking. 'Walk in mans shoe..' And all that ..

Should that be "Walk a mile in a man's shoes before criticising him - that way when you criticise him you've got a mile start and he's in bare feet..."?

Stuartg
25-03-14, 19:03
This coach paid the price

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Sport/Rugby/Lengthy-suspension-slapped-on-Cambridgeshire-RFU-chairman-and-Newmarket-head-coach-Steve-Drawbridge-20140325070000.htm

matty1194
25-03-14, 21:03
Ok. Fair enough..but don't talk to him nor give the ****** eye contact. If he's at the club house door and is doing that to wait for you and intimidate you and have another uninvited crack at you...then definitely report that.

Menace, why should OBT not hold his head up and walk past him and as OBT stated its the only way in? It is not OBT who needs to keep his head down but more so this idiot and club's blazers would of been swiftly gripped if not forthcoming with this fools details.



On Sunday gone I was asked to video a semi final match in the Borders by the away team, home crowd were very vocal towards the ref about decisions given against their team, including some of their senior blazers who had the rest of the crowd following them in their incessent shouting at the ref.

As im stood in the stand videoing the game and getting sick of the abuse being directed towards the pitch I set my alarm to go off 5 minutes later, I answer my phone and loudly speak into it as though having a conversation. Stated im down watching a game, some of the "assistance" from the stands is utter bollocks though as they obviously dont understand how a ruck or maul works and that they musn't know or dont care about the code of conduct that every club has signed upto. But apart from that the sun is shining and Ive got a beer in my hand and will speak to you later.

The stand after that was a much nicer place to watch the match from after they shut up!

menace
25-03-14, 23:03
Menace, why should OBT not hold his head up and walk past him and as OBT stated its the only way in? It is not OBT who needs to keep his head down but more so this idiot and club's blazers would of been swiftly gripped if not forthcoming with this fools details.


You misinterpret what i said. I wasn't suggesting OBT put his head down at all? You can get past people quite easily by looking straight up and ahead and without looking at them in the eye...well at least I've mastered it?

davidgh
31-03-14, 10:03
Stuartg - I suppose I shouldn't be surprised but this is a really amazing situation, so the Chairman of Cambridgeshire RFU has abused a young referee - absurd - surely the guy MUST resign from his CB position.

UNBELIEVABLE

Browner
31-03-14, 11:03
On Sunday gone I was asked to video a semi final match in the Borders by the away team, home crowd were very vocal towards the ref about decisions given against their team, including some of their senior blazers who had the rest of the crowd following them in their incessent shouting at the ref.

As im stood in the stand videoing the game and getting sick of the abuse being directed towards the pitch I set my alarm to go off 5 minutes later, I answer my phone and loudly speak into it as though having a conversation. Stated im down watching a game, some of the "assistance" from the stands is utter bollocks though as they obviously dont understand how a ruck or maul works and that they musn't know or dont care about the code of conduct that every club has signed upto. But apart from that the sun is shining and Ive got a beer in my hand and will speak to you later.

The stand after that was a much nicer place to watch the match from after they shut up![/QUOTE]

Nice 1....you're a genius '............., did you consider panning the video camera on them , I suspect that might have curtailed them as well !

matty1194
31-03-14, 20:03
Nice 1....you're a genius '............., did you consider panning the video camera on them , I suspect that might have curtailed them as well !

Browner, no unfortunately I did not, however one of the "supporters" asked if the game/ref was being recorded, I replied," Yes, Im videoing the game as a training tool for the referee however his comms set has stopped working so Im having to use the camcorder internal mic from here in the stands for the sound and its really good quality, hears everything from 50m away"

People around me got even quieter after that!

Owen Bisto Taylor
31-03-14, 20:03
Its strange, as soon as this has happened to me (to clarify, I'm only 20 and been reffing about 4-5 months), I have started being given higher level games, and at these fixtures include programmes etc. a lot of which have a club code of conduct for their supporters, that linked with the bloke who wrote a letter to the club's supporters telling them to (paraphrased) bugger off if you abuse a referee. I think its clear that rugby community are not willing to tolerate this sort of nonsense whatsoever.

The last thing we need, is kn*bheads ruining the game for young officials, as if my experience is the same as others, we could potentially be the ones who one day may be the man in the middle on the telly! SO it's good to see things being done in terms of abuse to officials!

davidgh
01-04-14, 08:04
Ahhhhhhh Bisto.

Smells good, well done, stick to your guns.

Does no end of good to the ref community to be seen to be politely in the right where the blazers are concerned.

Browner
07-09-14, 21:09
Sadly, I've broken an unwanted 'duck' yesterday

Having lost my earlier fixture : ( , I get L6 3rds v bottom of L10 1sts.

Away L10 side arrive very late with x13players, K/O delayed 15mins, they borrow x2.
Home win 50-12 & are better technicians and have more support near the ball both in D or A, to run in unopposed or turnover possession from isolated BC when defending.
Had to threaten away coach (after A&T) with pitchside removal, for incessant appealing for all decisions prior to advantage expiring and telling me that he could shout as loud as he likes and there was nothing i could do about it !
On 66 mins, away side 'claim' one front rower has strained his back, so uncontested's are now agreed!

In the bar, I've noshed and chatted and hoc to players etc, for 40 mins .... Home capt says his players praised my communication, consistency, refereeing spirit , law application etc, much better than they usually get etc ...

Away coach, suggests I favoured away side deliberately, when I objected to the ' insinuation' one of his players piped up, " I'll say it if you won't , you're a cheat" this was 5.51pm in the bar after a match that finished an hour earlier..

This is the 1st time I've ever been called a cheat, coach didn't use the 'Ch' word, but he was clearly the orchestrator of the mindset from which his player was unable to contain his utterance

Until 5.50pm it was an enjoyable run out, however thereafter I was inwardly miffed, so I went to the gym on the way home and took it out on the bike & chest press machines!

I rang a senior society chap, who immediately guessed the player as soon as I named the club !

winchesterref
07-09-14, 22:09
It is unfortunate but you come across them. Just remember he's playing at L10 and may be one of many things - not totally au fait with the laws being one.

I had a L6 coach scream at me yesterday through the tunnel, out the other side and then continuing while I ended the discussion. They're just morons and not worth the time.

Browner
07-09-14, 23:09
It is unfortunate but you come across them. Just remember he's playing at L10 and may be one of many things - not totally au fait with the laws being one.

I had a L6 coach scream at me yesterday through the tunnel, out the other side and then continuing while I ended the discussion. They're just morons and not worth the time.

Did you complete an abuse report?, if not then what will make such behaviour desist?

Daftmedic
07-09-14, 23:09
Sadly, I've broken an unwanted 'duck' yesterday

Having lost my earlier fixture : ( , I get L6 3rds v bottom of L10 1sts.

Away L10 side arrive very late with x13players, K/O delayed 15mins, they borrow x2.
Home win 50-12 & are better technicians and have more support near the ball both in D or A, to run in unopposed or turnover possession from isolated BC when defending.
Had to threaten away coach (after A&T) with pitchside removal, for incessant appealing for all decisions prior to advantage expiring and telling me that he could shout as loud as he likes and there was nothing i could do about it !
On 66 mins, away side 'claim' one front rower has strained his back, so uncontested's are now agreed!

In the bar, I've noshed and chatted and hoc to players etc, for 40 mins .... Home capt says his players praised my communication, consistency, refereeing spirit , law application etc, much better than they usually get etc ...

Away coach, suggests I favoured away side deliberately, when I objected to the ' insinuation' one of his players piped up, " I'll say it if you won't , you're a cheat" this was 5.51pm in the bar after a match that finished an hour earlier..

This is the 1st time I've ever been called a cheat, coach didn't use the 'Ch' word, but he was clearly the orchestrator of the mindset from which his player was unable to contain his utterance

Until 5.50pm it was an enjoyable run out, however thereafter I was inwardly miffed, so I went to the gym on the way home and took it out on the bike & chest press machines!

I rang a senior society chap, who immediately guessed the player as soon as I named the club !


*Puts on his best Ozzie accent*
struth, he's like a bloody dingo with a toothache

winchesterref
07-09-14, 23:09
Did you complete an abuse report?, if not then what will make such behaviour desist?

Not as such, as I wasn't paying full attention and can't recall the full content. However relevant people will be made aware and behaviour recorded.

Browner
08-09-14, 00:09
Not as such, as I wasn't paying full attention and can't recall the full content. However relevant people will be made aware and behaviour recorded.

Maybe if someone had taken issue the first time he'd done this, then maybe he wouldn't still be practising the 'art' ?
Or maybe this was his first attempt!

Browner
08-09-14, 00:09
*Puts on his best Ozzie accent*
struth, he's like a bloody dingo with a toothache

Such obscureness is beyond my relaxed Sunday evening mindset