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FightOrFlight
02-07-14, 22:07
If you referee at underage level then you will most likely come across a game where one team is running in tries without the other getting a touch of the ball at all.

The question I ask is how do you deal with it?

I had a few games last year that were 13-17 age group and 50-70 point margins at half time. You can ask the coach what he wants done.....you can not stop the watch at all for injuries etc but have any of you ever thought "here this should be blown up now". Some coaches will say it to you and others will refuse and allow the team to take a tonking.....but it's unfair on young kids to be beaten like that...

I had a 140-0 u15s game last year(watch running non stop from 10mins in until the end)....a few kids were crying after but the coach demanded the full time be played....

Rushforth
02-07-14, 22:07
The rule here in Holland is if there is already a 30 point gap at half-time, the teams should mix to balance for the second half. Halves are 25 mins for U15, 30 for U17, and 35 for U19. It rarely happens, but as a referee I always offer the side under the cosh the option.

Ian_Cook
02-07-14, 22:07
Some year ago, we trialled having the team that scored restarting, so the team that is scored against a lot at least get a chance to get hands on the ball.

crossref
02-07-14, 23:07
This situation is really up to the coaches to sort out Not the Ref. ... But you can nudge the coaches

didds
02-07-14, 23:07
if there are no AG rules, or competition rules (if its in a competition!) for a mercy ending then you are down to the coaches.

i suppose as a ref the only thing you have at your disposal if you really feel its your call, is to call the game on a "danger" aspect eg the losers are in danger of getting injured due to the hugely superior oppo.

BUT - that's a big call.

The problem you have is the testosterone levels of the coaches involved.

didds

Rich
03-07-14, 00:07
Surrey league matches can be stopped at a 40pt differential

Chris_j
03-07-14, 00:07
U19 and below in England requires the ref to stop at 50 clear points, unless the teams both agree to continue.

http://www.rfu.com/thegame/~/media/files/thegame/regulations/rfu%20regulation%2015%20%281213%29.pdf


15.14.315.14.4 (tel:15.14.315.14.4) Matches must be brought to an end if:



(a) at Under 7s to Under 12s the try difference rises to more than six; or
(b) at Under 13s to Under 18s the points difference is more than 50 pointsunless both teams are in agreement to continue.







As referees we should always ask as the score approaches 50 clear points. With some coaches I don't give the option and blow anyway.

Taff
03-07-14, 00:07
In WRU land, I always understood that the game ended if the margin got above 50 points. Do you think I can find that written down anywhere?

The closest I can find is a paragraph in the Pathway booklet that says


It is strongly recommended that coaches and referees are sensitive to the scores so that one side is not overwhelmed. Enjoyment and development must be the priority at this stage.

Browner
03-07-14, 02:07
Under the Regs its the Coaches decision not the referees ( except unsafe).

note, RFU reg 15.14.4 refers to U18's, u19s aren't affected by it.

Anthony
03-07-14, 03:07
In Sydney Juniors there is what is referred to as the "mercy rule" which depending on age requires the dominant team at a lead of say 40 points to drop a player (ie 15 vs 14) and if the score continues to increase at 50 points to drop another player. I have done a couple of these and it can work well in giving the losing team a bit of an opportunity to play without necessarily affecting the end result, which is where the coaches get concerned

Blackberry
03-07-14, 12:07
Under the Regs its the Coaches decision not the referees ( except unsafe).

note, RFU reg 15.14.4 refers to U18's, u19s aren't affected by it.

Hi Browner, just red the regs, I reckon its not down to the coach, the regs say the game "must" be brought to an end. This takes the onus off the coach and pressure off us!

crossref
03-07-14, 13:07
Hi Browner, just red the regs, I reckon its not down to the coach, the regs say the game "must" be brought to an end. This takes the onus off the coach and pressure off us!

15.14.4 Matches must be brought to an end if:
(a) at Under 7s to Under 12s the try difference rises to more than six; or
(b) at Under 13s to Under 18s the points difference is more than 50 points
unless both teams are in agreement to continue.

the bold bit -- seems to me that's the bit that gives the power to the coaches. If both coaches want to keep going then the game continues.

in practice though I think
- in competitions there is often a regualtion that will stop the game
- in friendlies the referee will generally have a lot of influence on the coaches
- I think the referee is also entitled to listen to the players, as well as the coaches.

dave_clark
03-07-14, 13:07
let's also remember that most coaches are reasonable, and agree there is no real benefit in a 95-0 hiding in anything other than a league match where points difference may count...

Browner
03-07-14, 13:07
Hi Browner, just red the regs, I reckon its not down to the coach, the regs say the game "must" be brought to an end. This takes the onus off the coach and pressure off us!

I know Blackberry, but "unless" provides the exception, so that decision is always the coaches.

If both coaches want to continue, then the game continues. If either of don't want it to, then it doesn't.

Personally, I'd always hope to seen some significant game modification orchestrated by the coaches to even up the contest, numbers/positions/personnel etc, but that's not a demand a referee should make.

crossref
03-07-14, 14:07
let's also remember that most coaches are reasonable, and agree there is no real benefit in a 95-0 hiding in anything other than a league match where points difference may count...

and that's why Surrey leagues, and Middx leagues, anticipating this - have a max points differential regulation, so that no match can be won by more that 50, or 45 points respectively. I imagine all youth legaues have that, as well as some adult competitions.

Even in adult competiotns you don't want close leages decided at the top by the extent of the hammering administered to the team at the bottom.

dave_clark
03-07-14, 15:07
yep, Essex has the same regs (35 i believe).

Blackberry
03-07-14, 15:07
I know Blackberry, but "unless" provides the exception, so that decision is always the coaches.

If both coaches want to continue, then the game continues. If either of don't want it to, then it doesn't.

Personally, I'd always hope to seen some significant game modification orchestrated by the coaches to even up the contest, numbers/positions/personnel etc, but that's not a demand a referee should make.

Spot on Browner, didn't read the last bit of the regs properly, thanks.

didds
03-07-14, 15:07
I know Blackberry, but "unless" provides the exception, so that decision is always the coaches.

If both coaches want to continue, then the game continues. If either of don't want it to, then it doesn't.

I suppose that while they may wish to continue the game, nothing is forcing a referee to continue to referee it... ?

didds

OB..
03-07-14, 16:07
let's also remember that most coaches are reasonable, and agree there is no real benefit in a 95-0 hiding in anything other than a league match where points difference may count...


Even in adult competiotns you don't want close leages decided at the top by the extent of the hammering administered to the team at the bottom.

Points difference is indeed a flawed system. Last season I saw a match that was 104-0 after 60 minutes. The losing side suggested calling a halt, but their opponents said they needed as many points as possible to beat the team on top of the league. When the score reached 128-0 the referee decided the losers were in danger of injury from sheer tiredness and called the game off about 5 minutes early. The winners moaned. Consequence? The following week the losers could not raise a team - against the league leaders!. The latter were awarded an artificial win. Fortunately that was enough.

In our Merit Tables the head to head between tied teams is the first decider, and so far (10 years) has always proved sufficient.

FightOrFlight
03-07-14, 17:07
Following the game I highlighted above that ended 140-0 there was a little bit of needle between coaches. No outright slagging match but a small bit of tension. The winning coach had insisted the full 60 be played(I didn't stop the watch after the first 10 mins and/or first 6 tries) and he later said that it was due to points difference in the league. Apparently they were a top 3 team and the other 2 teams in that position had put 100+ on this opposition. When he said that it introduced a new element to the issue for me. If one ref lets it go and someone scored 100 or 200 points then it is unfair of me to handicap other teams who may need to match this points difference albeit morally I feel I must.

didds
03-07-14, 17:07
He's talking out iof his arse.

The "problem" exists with the idiots that have created a junior league that permits 140-0 drubbings, and ends up creating exactly this mindset - when the focus and onus should be on developing players not primarily seeking wins.

didds

didds
03-07-14, 17:07
OB nails it.

if in these leagues a walkover is "only" worth a 50-0 points score (if at all!) then a team potentially loses out when they cannot play a team that gets drubbed constantly. That makes a mockery of the situation.

The reverse side of the copin is that a middle table team may ship a PD of 15-20 points to a league leader. one week due to external circumsyances they field a weakened team and ship 70 points PD. That creates another imbalance that is unfair on the other leading teams. Similat scenarios also exist for teams in the relegation zone.

The only answer is a mandatory no-side at (say) 50 points difference (maybe with some basic caveats), with a 50-0 walkover score awarded.



didds

crossref
03-07-14, 17:07
our league works that when you get to a 45 points difference that's the end of the game for league purposes, and that's the score that is recorded. If both teams want to finish the game then they can continue, but it doesn't count for the league.

It works well - they most often do continue and in almost all cases I have witnessed the winning coach will then bring on all his remaining subs in order to give them some game time, and takes the opportunity to rest key players.
in consequence the losing team will often scroe a consolation try or two and leave the pitch a lot happier.

FightOrFlight
03-07-14, 21:07
He's talking out iof his arse.

The "problem" exists with the idiots that have created a junior league that permits 140-0 drubbings, and ends up creating exactly this mindset - when the focus and onus should be on developing players not primarily seeking wins.

didds

I totally agree with your point. The problem in Leinster anyhow is that it can sometimes be a very small pond containing some very big fish. It's separated into Metro(Dublin area) North East, South East, Midlands etc. In the case of the South East for example there are actually only 2 maybe 3 clubs at a push that have any type of proper setup and so they tend to slaughter(and absorb playing squads at 19s) the smaller clubs around them. You generally see the same clubs top the leagues in those areas across all age grades. The guys who make up the leagues cannot avoid placing them with weaker clubs and there needs to be fixtures as they cant all just play a 3 team tournament.

There also tends to be an element of politics to league placing. Middle Of Nowhere RFC may have a crop of superstars but they will be placed in Div 3/4 at say 14s/15s because they are a small club. They proceed to tonk all other teams for 3/4 years without being promoted too far until MAYBE they are put in Div 1 if a big club is not fielding at 19s. In past years weak clubs have moved outside their area. I know a start up club in Dublin that played in a more rural league as the standard was too high in the metro area but they were still getting smashed by the big boys in the countryside. The branch seems opposed to fixing set leagues for age grade and moving teams up or down through relegation/promotion....most likely because many of the guys on committee want to look after their own club.

OB..
03-07-14, 22:07
The only answer is a mandatory no-side at (say) 50 points difference (maybe with some basic caveats), with a 50-0 walkover score awarded.
diddsThat still disadvantages the side that "only" scores 49-0. I still prefer the head-to-head as a tiebreaker.

Dickie E
03-07-14, 22:07
In our Merit Tables the head to head between tied teams is the first decider, and so far (10 years) has always proved sufficient.

I'm not clear what that means.

Does it mean that if Red and Blue finish equal first then Blue wins because Blue beat Red more often during the season?

crossref
03-07-14, 23:07
I'm not clear what that means.

Does it mean that if Red and Blue finish equal first then Blue wins because Blue beat Red more often during the season?

it means that if blue and red finish equal first, then you look at the results of the two games between them.
if one team won both games they win. If they won one each, then take it on points scored in the games.

It's much better than deciding between blue and red on the grounds of how many points they managed to put on hapless Green.
(lets say Red beat them by 242 points in two games, but when blue scored 160 points in the first game, but the second was a walkover and they were awarded a 50 point victory making it 210)

Taff
03-07-14, 23:07
I'm not clear what that means.
it means that if blue and red finish equal first, then you look at the results of the two games between them. if one team won both games they win. If they won one each, then take it on points scored in the games.
So a match where one team gets a stuffing can get stopped or adjusted (at say 50 points difference) and it doesn't affect the total points scored decider?

I like it.

menace
04-07-14, 02:07
For what it's worth, as exposed above, our junior league places the total points differential "last resort" as the tie breaker....so that it diminishes the need for top teams feeling they have to belt the bottom teams. Ie

"In the event of two or more teams being equal in competition points or performance percentage at the end of the competition rounds, final placings will be decided by:
(A) A higher ranking being awarded to the team which has forfeited less games during the season,
(B) A higher ranking being awarded to the team which has defeated otherwise equally placed teams more often during the season,
(C) Totalling the points scored for and against by the two or more teams level in the competition when those teams met in the competition rounds,
(D) Where one of the teams has forfeited to the other, placing the team against which the forfeit has been recorded behind the other team
(E) If the teams are still equal, totalling the total points scored For and Against during all competition rounds."

Yes it can be overly complex at times to explain this ranking process to people come the end of the season, but it does seem to work out ok. It doesn't stop the drubbing though as some coaches still hunt out the huge wins! Our league had also implemented a mercy rule of sorts this season (similar to what was mentioned in this thread) where a team drops a player each 10 points above 30 differential in an attempt to 'even up' the contest. That has only had limited success too. That is followed up by a regrading system halfway through the season where teams can be moved divisions more suited to their ability. (Personally I'd prefer if our league administrators applied a bit more effort into grading the teams more evenly in the first place for eg using the first few rounds of the season conducting mini round robin contests or such).

Guyseep
04-07-14, 06:07
In a senior game if the score gets out of hand I usually ask the losing captain if he/she wants to cut the game short. After that I'll play for another 5 mins or so and call the end of game. The score at that time stands.

In a junior game if the game, if the score is being run up the losing team usually loses motivation and it does get somewhat dangerous as they aren't fully committed to the game. I usually speak to their coach and mention that it might be a good idea to end the game early. I've never had a coach disagree.

Na Madrai
04-07-14, 07:07
In the North Mids. in any competition, a juniors' match is over once a fifty point differential has been reached.

I always ask the losing coach if he wishes to carry on and they invariably do so. As stated above, the winning coach will normally play his subs or even lend the weaker side some of his players but the score at the change stands.

I did once have a situation where an established club turned up with a full squad of players for a cup match against a club that struggled to field twelve. Once the score had reached fifty, I doubt twenty minutes had passed, I called the two coaches together for a chin wag to decide what should happen next and the winning coach declined to play on and took his team off and away home - before I had blown for full time!

The powers that be decided that his team had caused the match to be abandoned and awarded the tie to the home club.

I did have a little chortle to meself at this, as the coach had been giving me a bit of stick during what there was of the match.

NM

Dickie E
04-07-14, 11:07
it means that if blue and red finish equal first, then you look at the results of the two games between them.
if one team won both games they win. If they won one each, then take it on points scored in the games.



No big deal - they'll still meet each other in the Grand Final

didds
04-07-14, 11:07
If ion fact the competition HAS a grand final. On the whole "we" don' have them up here, which is why people can't get their head round the concept that the premiership does not have a league table but a qualification table. You'd think they'd get it after several seasons but i still hear moans that team X "won" the league but lost the premiership.

didds

OB..
04-07-14, 12:07
If ion fact the competition HAS a grand final. On the whole "we" don' have them up here, which is why people can't get their head round the concept that the premiership does not have a league table but a qualification table. You'd think they'd get it after several seasons but i still hear moans that team X "won" the league but lost the premiership.

diddsI certainly understand the system, but I still dislike it. In its first year it was a separate competition for the top 8 teams. That gave just about all clubs something to aim for even late in the season. However now we effectively have a marathon decided by a 100m sprint - two different type of competition with only one winner. The original format made much better sense.

More significantly it is totally inappropriate for the Championship to be decided that way. Avoiding relegation from the Premiership means being good enough throughout the season, rain or shine, not in a final knock-out phase at the end in weather that may well suit one team more than another, or when sheer luck may turn the match.

crossref
04-07-14, 12:07
No big deal - they'll still meet each other in the Grand Final

that doesn't solve it - we might be talking about Red and Blue finishing equal second, and which one of the goes through to be in the grand final

(or equal 4th, or whatwever - all leagues have to have ways of separating teams on same points)

crossref
04-07-14, 12:07
However now we effectively have a marathon decided by a 100m sprint .

that's exactly what a bike road race is ...... and they are great!

Dickie E
04-07-14, 12:07
that's exactly what a bike road race is ...... and they are great!

and the FA Cup, and Wimbledon, and the soccer World Cup and rugby World Cup, etc,. etc

Browner
04-07-14, 14:07
I suppose that while they may wish to continue the game, nothing is forcing a referee to continue to referee it... ?

didds

If the RFU had wanted the decision to be the referees , they wouldn't have deliberately written the exception into their regs.

Ps..If a 18yr old can be an employed married father who drives, drinks goes to war and votes, then he don't need a 50pt protection rule IMHO!

Browner
04-07-14, 14:07
in almost all cases I have witnessed the winning coach will then bring on all his remaining subs in order to give them some game time, and takes the opportunity to rest key players.
in consequence the losing team will often scroe a consolation try or two and leave the pitch a lot happier.

Whoa crossref, a smart coach?, don't dispel the myth that all coaches are numbskulls ! (Sarc) :-)

didds
04-07-14, 16:07
If the RFU had wanted the decision to be the referees , they wouldn't have deliberately written the exception into their regs.


so what reg, rukle or law FORCES a referee (an individual) to referee a match?

The laws as writ permit the match to continue. It doesn't mean the initial/original bloke with the whistle HAS to referee it.

??????

didds

Greig
06-07-14, 07:07
The only answer is a mandatory no-side at (say) 50 points difference (maybe with some basic caveats), with a 50-0 walkover score awarded.

In the junior comp here in Sydney, the rules mandate that the recorded score of the winning team at the end of the game can be no more than 50 points greater than the losing team score. ie if a team wins 70-5, then the recorded score is 55-5.

This means that when a 50 point differnetial is recorded, then game may continue, or not, at the coaches/players dicretion without impacting on the comp pointscore. This means coaches gain nothing by subjecting opposing teams to a 140-0 humiliation in order to improve their for/against ratio.

Further the competition has a voluntary "mercy rule", where at 40 points differential the winning team removes a player, and at 50 points diff another player is removed. This encourages games to continue to completion, and give all the players a good run.

Browner
06-07-14, 08:07
so what reg, rukle or law FORCES a referee (an individual) to referee a match?

The laws as writ permit the match to continue. It doesn't mean the initial/original bloke with the whistle HAS to referee it.

??????

didds

Of course Didds, volunteers CAN withdraw their labour at any time, but the RFU clearly permit ( expect?) continuance of fixture IF coaches agree, and its encumbant on a referee to show respect for that regulation.

If a referee walks off because he disagrees with the 'authority' of the regs, then which reg next ?!? ...it doesnt paint him in a good light. If something is outside the regs then thats a different matter, but this isn't.


Its up to the coach to sort out the arrangements - not you. You just ref under the mantra of "safety, equity, law.

Dixie
06-07-14, 08:07
Its up to the coach to sort out the arrangements - not you. You just ref under the mantra of "safety, equity, law. Agreed. But if you and the coach disagree about what is safe (many would consider that members of a deflated team suffering a thrashing are not as safe on the field as a team that is competing well), then the referee can decline to continue without in any way deviating from the regulation, and without having to choose which regs to adopt and which to avoid.

Chris_j
06-07-14, 10:07
Hi Browner,
Junior NLD league games stop at 50 clear points. See NLD U13-U19 Competition rules, rule 23. You may then agree to play on but the score is recorded at the 50 clear points.

http://sitemanager.nldrfu.co.uk/files/nld/docs/U13-19%2013-14/NLD%20U13-19%20Competition%20Rules%20v3%2028-05-2014.pdf



23. When the difference in scores between the two teams exceeds 50 points the referee will stop the match, as the match will be deemed to be over (games may continue at the discretion of the team coaches but the result must be recorded at the point of 50 points difference being exceeded.)

Don't know if it has happened with your u16s team yet but as a ref I have a couple of games a season where it applies.

Chris

Browner
06-07-14, 15:07
Agreed. But if you and the coach disagree about what is safe (many would consider that members of a deflated team suffering a thrashing are not as safe on the field as a team that is competing well), then the referee can decline to continue without in any way deviating from the regulation, and without having to choose which regs to adopt and which to avoid.

Safety override was acknowledged Dixie, but I'd say its a big call for any referee unilaterally assessing 'spirit' deflation when he doesn't know the players anywhere near as well as the coaching team or the watching parents.

Competition 'capping' is a separate issue that im not challenging.
But whilst the point has been raised, the team I coach did amass 50 pts with only 25 mins played on one occasion, not our fault competition league/draw forced it, and most of the scores were through speed handling and evasion so opposition weren't battered. We were glad to be able to reduce our numbers and play the remainder of the game by swapping forwards and backs positions, I recall the remainder of the fixture was very competitive , well well worth it, our forwards loved it our backs realised that possession is hard to gain and keep! Opposition players confidence grew, so win win win.

The alternative of ...packing up & leaving to drive 1hr before the nosh was cooked ( empty clubhouse & opposition were goingvto stay out and train ) with most families deeming the whole morning a waste of everyone's effort wasnt desirable to either Coaching team. It would have been a shame if we'd been appointed an overbearing whistler who didn't understand that coaching objectives aren't always soley score dependent.

Crikey, we travelled 1hr 20 mins once and a player forgot his gumshield , the referee mistakenly thought he was 'Required' to send him home without playing ...despite the parent wishing otherwise, such instances are one of the main reason I carry regulations with me, to avoid genuine 'error'

Browner
06-07-14, 16:07
Hi Browner,
Junior NLD league games stop at 50 clear points. See NLD U13-U19 Competition rules, rule 23. You may then agree to play on but the score is recorded at the 50 clear points.

http://sitemanager.nldrfu.co.uk/files/nld/docs/U13-19%2013-14/NLD%20U13-19%20Competition%20Rules%20v3%2028-05-2014.pdf



23. When the difference in scores between the two teams exceeds 50 points the referee will stop the match, as the match will be deemed to be over (games may continue at the discretion of the team coaches but the result must be recorded at the point of 50 points difference being exceeded.)

Don't know if it has happened with your u16s team yet but as a ref I have a couple of games a season where it applies.

Chris

Hi chris-j
Score ' capping ' in comps isn't the issue, that's accepted. But I can see why some get confused.
Your comp Regs should always allign with rfu IMO. easier to avoid myths being born and reduces across CB border fixture confusions
Thanks though.

crossref
06-07-14, 17:07
. We were glad to be able to reduce our numbers and play the remainder of the game by swapping forwards and backs positions, .

that was rather brave of you, considering that at junior levels all of the front FIVE have to be considered STE....
brave. or foolish.

Taff
06-07-14, 19:07
that was rather brave of you, considering that at junior levels all of the front FIVE have to be considered STE....
brave. or foolish.
I'm guessing they were uncontested scrums by then.

crossref
06-07-14, 19:07
that was rather brave of you, considering that at junior levels all of the front FIVE have to be considered STE....
brave. or foolish.
I'm guessing they were uncontested scrums by then.


Even in an uncontested scrum you have to play your STE players before any non STE ones

Browner
06-07-14, 20:07
that was rather brave of you, considering that at junior levels all of the front FIVE have to be considered STE....
brave. or foolish.

Or enlightened?

You mean you don't have a coaching plan to get players multipositional as minis/young juniors ...as per all RFU development L1\2 coachng tut tut....

Anyway, if you get the ref and opposition on board uncontested is a viable alternative in a friendly if you have to, we didn't need to.


TBH with good binding I very rarely see a junior scrum collapse, in fact now I come to mention it I don't think I've ever seen our scrum collapse.

medavidcook
03-09-14, 12:09
In WRU land, I always understood that the game ended if the margin got above 50 points. Do you think I can find that written down anywhere?

The closest I can find is a paragraph in the Pathway booklet that says

Taff you are correct it is 50 points regardless of time elapsed it is in the pathway booklet, can send link if you want it.

I had this issue last year, final game of the season and I said to the coaches before the game that game will be stopped at 50 point margin (looked at results from previous games) and one coach said fine the other said well we need an 80 point gap win to win the league. I argued that I am going to stop at 50 which I did 5 mins into the second half, the coach who wasn't happy reported me to the WRU and got a phone call a week later telling me I done the right thing and not to worry. Then find out I had to do a tournament for said team last week.

I don't see the issue with big gaps its not enjoyable for anyone, people get upset and stop playing the game.

Camquin
03-09-14, 14:09
In the Girls matches I have been involved in as a coach we have stopped the league match, but not stopped the rugby.
We have always rejigged and got a proper match going.
In my view that ensure everyone gets game time, and also gives the stronger players the challenge of playing with weaker players and the weaker players the opportunity to see what the better players are doing.

Of course we are trying to build a game. My daughter is moving to a new club again this season as the club she was at does not have enough U18 girls to field a team. It may be a harder sell in the boy's game where most clubs are fielding sides at every age group and often multiple sides.

Camquin