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AntonyGoodman
15-09-14, 13:09
Hi All,

New to this forum and just wanted to start a discussion on the under 11's new rules of play and how they are being interpreted by people as you start the new season.

http://www.rfu.com/thegame/~/media/files/thegame/regulations/rfu_regulation_15_appendix_1_u11_new_rules_of_play _neutral.ashx (http://www.rfu.com/thegame/~/media/files/thegame/regulations/rfu_regulation_15_appendix_1_u11_new_rules_of_play _neutral.ashx)

I ref this age group in the UK and it would be great to chat over these rules with other people in the same boat.

I look forward to all your comments and tips :)

Thanks,

Antony

Phil E
15-09-14, 14:09
You might just want to check you have the right rules as your link goes to the old RFU website, not the new England Rugby website. They are probably the same, but worth checking.

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/Governance/Regulations/01/30/44/31/RFU_Regulation_15_Appendix_1_U11_New_Rules_of_Play _Neutral.pdf

Browner
15-09-14, 17:09
Hi Antony, welcome.

It would be easier if you kicked off with any concerns/issues that you have, otherwise we could end up discussing things that aren't troubling the grey cells!

AntonyGoodman
15-09-14, 19:09
Thanks Phil E, yes, they are the same rules.

Browner: That makes sense. Here is the first question then:

At the restart, the ball must travel 7m, I assume it can bounce before it travels the 7m, it is just that it can't be played by the kicking team until it has gone the 7m?

Thanks,

Antony

Browner
15-09-14, 20:09
At the restart, the ball must travel 7m, I assume it can bounce before it travels the 7m, it is just that it can't be played by the kicking team until it has gone the 7m?


correct.

It mirrors all the requirements of law 13.5 (other than the distance involved) It is perfectly acceptable for the ball to bounce before it travels the 7m, and a chaser can grab it as soon as it goes 7m ( provided he was onside at the kick)

Nb.....there is no remit to take a quick restart, All opposition must have returned 7m into their own half before it is kicked.

AntonyGoodman
16-09-14, 00:09
Thanks for clarifying.

Next one, potentially not so closed a question.

After being scored against you get to decide to kick the restart, or receive the kick from the opposition. Which one looks like the best option based on games you have played so far?

Thanks,

Antony

Dixie
16-09-14, 13:09
correct.

It mirrors all the requirements of law 13.5 (other than the distance involved) It is perfectly acceptable for the ball to bounce before it travels the 7m, and a chaser can grab it as soon as it goes 7m ( provided he was onside at the kick). But be aware - this is commonly misunderstood by the sideline, including by a great many coaches. If you plan to coach this tactic to your boys, I suggest you get clarification/confirmation from the RFU and show it to the oppo ref just before kick-off. If your own ref is in the middle, show it to the oppo coach when the initial signs of apoplexy have died down somewhat.

In most cases, I see no upside to the side scored against electing to kick a restart so the oppo can build pressure again. Better to get them to kick to you so you can exert some pressure of your own. However, if you are struggling to retain your own ball at the breakdown, you may wish to ensure the oppo start their drive to your line from close to their own goal line - but it's a very negative tactic, aimed at reducing the number of tries they score against you rather than trying to see what you can achieve against them.

AntonyGoodman
16-09-14, 14:09
Thanks Dixie. Good advice on the restart question. On the topic of to receive or kick, I think we were coming to the same conclusion, but it was hard to gage from our first play throughs. Any idea why they introduced the choice when it doesn't exist in the main game?

Thanks,

Antony

Browner
16-09-14, 15:09
Thanks for clarifying.

Next one, potentially not so closed a question.

After being scored against you get to decide to kick the restart, or receive the kick from the opposition. Which one looks like the best option based on games you have played so far?


This is a new one, didnt exist back in our u11 day.

Ah ha I see......... Free tactical advise sought ..... Lol

My advise is discuss with the players what they would want/expect /hope for from either situation, then they develop their own game strategy thinking. Self learning is best practice IMO. After all any chase success requires kick and chase ability to dovetail.

john g
16-09-14, 15:09
Thanks Dixie. Good advice on the restart question. On the topic of to receive or kick, I think we were coming to the same conclusion, but it was hard to gage from our first play throughs. Any idea why they introduced the choice when it doesn't exist in the main game?

Thanks,

Antony

I wonder if it is from the 7s format with the side that scored kicks?

AntonyGoodman
16-09-14, 16:09
Thanks Browner, thought I sneeked that in quite well ;)

I agree with you on getting the boys input, I think I will leave them to it for a few games, and then we can discuss how it is going in light of games played.

Thanks,

Antony

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks John, yes I hadn't thought of that.

Antony

Dan Cottrell
16-09-14, 17:09
I am not sure where this fits into the rules here...

7. Free Passes:
a) A free pass is used:
i. where the ball or ball carrier has gone into touch, 5 metres in
from the side of the pitch where the ball or ball carrier went
into touch
UNDERSTAND THAT...INSTEAD OF A LINEOUT
ii. once forward momentum has been stopped and the ball has not
been played away from the contact area
IS THE END OF A MAUL? IF SO IT CONTRADICTS RULE 8.k)
iii. if the tackler makes contact above the shoulder
MAKES SENSE, THOUGH I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT WAS A PENALTY

Forgive capitals, not meaning to shout!

Dixie
16-09-14, 18:09
Any idea why they introduced the choice when it doesn't exist in the main game? You can imagine a mismatch in which Red kicks off, Blue catches and scores, leaving Red to kick off, and Blue catches and scores. Leaving Red to kick off ... you see where I am going here. In most games, the disaster of a score against you is mitigated by the fact that you get a go yourself from the restart. Adult rugby is unusual in that respect, so perhaps this is just a way to make the game a little less daunting for the junior team that ships a fair few tries.

AntonyGoodman
16-09-14, 20:09
Hi Dan,

My understanding of the rule you mention is this:

i) Yep, you have got it.
ii) A maul is not formed unless you have the ball carrier, the tackler and TWO more players. It is perfectly possible for 1 player to tackle the ball carrier, hold him up, and stop his forward progress.
iii) Agree with you on that one, no penalties in our game though.

Thanks,

Antony

Dan Cottrell
17-09-14, 07:09
Hi Dan,

My understanding of the rule you mention is this:

ii) A maul is not formed unless you have the ball carrier, the tackler and TWO more players. It is perfectly possible for 1 player to tackle the ball carrier, hold him up, and stop his forward progress.


So why is that a free pass and not a scrum? Plus, a maul is a ball carrier, a team mate and a defender all bound together.

AntonyGoodman
17-09-14, 08:09
Good question Dan, not sure why it is a different sanction. Anyone know?

If you look in the under 11 rules, the definition of a maul is different.

Antony

Browner
17-09-14, 09:09
If you look in the under 11 rules, the definition of a maul is different.


U11
8.(b)
BC + tackler + any two players from either team = maul formed.

why do this, when it simply reverts to std 'maul forming definition' at u13s .....(or at u12 IF old u12 rules still apply???) .....unnecessary tampering IMO.

AntonyGoodman
17-09-14, 09:09
Yes, not sure Browner. I am guessing someone must have thought this was a good idea for a reason, rather than just to mess with our heads :) Can anyone enlighten us on the possible reasons for this one?

Thanks,

Antony

Dan Cottrell
17-09-14, 09:09
Yes...I didn't read that one on what is a maul...just assumed it would have stayed the same as normal.

AntonyGoodman
17-09-14, 10:09
U11
8.(b)
BC + tackler + any two players from either team = maul formed.

why do this, when it simply reverts to std 'maul forming definition' at u13s .....(or at u12 IF old u12 rules still apply???) .....unnecessary tampering IMO.


Yes...I didn't read that one on what is a maul...just assumed it would have stayed the same as normal.

Guys, this is what gets us into trouble with coaches and parents! I am all for having slightly different rules if it is of some benefit, just can't see it in this instance. It would be great if when they published this kind of thing that they put some sort of reason behind the difference from the normal rules.

Thanks,

Antony

AntonyGoodman
17-09-14, 10:09
To give you an example where I think I can see what they were thinking:

9) d) Other than from a restart, a free kick or charge down, if from a kick the ball is played in flight by a player of the non-kicking team and knocked forward, a scrum will be awarded to the non-kicking team from where the ball is touched.


I think what they are trying to do here is slightly dissuade the use of the kick (in open play) and reward the attempt to catch the ball on the full (your ball, even if you drop it), but it would be great if it actually said this in the rules :)

Thanks,

Antony

Browner
17-09-14, 10:09
Guys, this is what gets us into trouble with coaches and parents! I am all for having slightly different rules if it is of some benefit, just can't see it in this instance.

It would be great if when they published this kind of thing that they put some sort of reason behind the difference from the normal rules.

Thanks,

Antony

Anthony, i kinda understand the 'confusion point' you're making........but, No coach has any excuse for not reading the same regs as referees.

Parents are excused being unable to understand the subtle differences of our sport regs .....PROVIDED ....they don't verbally challenge/berate decisions of a referee.

Stormkahn
19-09-14, 12:09
Hi Guys,
I've got a few questions!

Just a little background; I've volunteered to help ref for our U11s to free up the coaches to actually coach, especially at festivals later in the year so atm I've only reffed a couple of training sessions!

Anyway;
8m 1 + 2 rule in action and the requirement for the ball to be passed away from the contact area if a ruck has been formed. (8m-ii).

Neither mentions what the penalty is and we've been unable to find anything relevant elsewhere so we're going with a free kick under 5a-i Foul Play.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Dave.

Stormkahn
19-09-14, 12:09
oh yes and another thing... ;) (may be a few of these).

On a start/restart if the receiving team knocks on it's definitely a scum to the kicking team?

Section 4 doesn't mention knock-ons and 9d excludes restarts so that's what we've ruled for now?

cheers,

Dave.

Browner
19-09-14, 12:09
Hi Guys,
I've got a few questions!

Just a little background; I've volunteered to help ref for our U11s to free up the coaches to actually coach, especially at festivals later in the year so atm I've only reffed a couple of training sessions!

Anyway;
8m 1 + 2 rule in action and the requirement for the ball to be passed away from the contact area if a ruck has been formed. (8m-ii).

Neither mentions what the penalty is and we've been unable to find anything relevant elsewhere so we're going with a free kick under 5a-i Foul Play.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Dave.

I think you're safe with awarding a FK, because the whole thrust of section 5 is FKs replacing PKs at this age grade .... Ie.. if all foul play is merely a FK !

Browner
19-09-14, 12:09
oh yes and another thing... ;) (may be a few of these).

On a start/restart if the receiving team knocks on it's definitely a scum to the kicking team?

Section 4 doesn't mention knock-ons and 9d excludes restarts so that's what we've ruled for now?

cheers,

Dave.

re:9d , it looks as though 'knock on from a restart' is excepted from being a scrum, which would seem to indicate its always PLAY ON .....

As always, there isnt any rfu thinking to accompany the amended/new u11 regs , so I can only imagine that this has been done to 'excuse' (ignore) catching errors that result in a 2nd restart ( scrum ) immediately following the restart ....

Least that's my reading of it ....

PS..9d also seems to act as a discouragement of Free Kicks being 'punted' , cos any resultant knock on by the catcher is similarly excepted (as above) and PLAY ON reigns

Stormkahn
19-09-14, 13:09
re:9d , it looks as though 'knock on from a restart' is excepted from being a scrum, which would seem to indicate its always PLAY ON .....

As always, there isnt any rfu thinking to accompany the amended/new u11 regs , so I can only imagine that this has been done to 'excuse' (ignore) catching errors that result in a 2nd restart ( scrum ) immediately following the restart ....

Least that's my reading of it ....

PS..9d also seems to act as a discouragement of Free Kicks being 'punted' , cos any resultant knock on by the catcher is similarly excepted (as above) and PLAY ON reigns

Thanks Browner, I appreciate the guidance, as you say the RFU hasn't put any out...

12a-ii indicates a scum for a knock on hence the scum to the kicking team rather than play on.

Speaking as a newbie who's scratching his his over the regs I have to say they're poorly written. Too many odd rules in out of the way places that are easily missed! frex A missed passed bounced and went into touch so I ruled FP under 7a-i but was later told about 12d so it should have been a scrum. However 12a mentions none of this so in order to know what you can/can't award a scrum for you have to read the entire document. I'll get it but it could have been made easier.

Thanks again, the lads have a festival in a couple of weeks, it's going to be interesting...

cheers,

Dave.

Browner
19-09-14, 13:09
Thanks Browner, I appreciate the guidance, as you say the RFU hasn't put any out...

12a-ii indicates a scum for a knock on hence the scum to the kicking team rather than play on.

Speaking as a newbie who's scratching his his over the regs I have to say they're poorly written. Too many odd rules in out of the way places that are easily missed! frex A missed passed bounced and went into touch so I ruled FP under 7a-i but was later told about 12d so it should have been a scrum. However 12a mentions none of this so in order to know what you can/can't award a scrum for you have to read the entire document. I'll get it but it could have been made easier.

Thanks again, the lads have a festival in a couple of weeks, it's going to be interesting...

cheers,

Dave.

12a ii is indeed the normal law, but (in the main, when the RFU have taken the trouble to write a separate section ) whenever you have a specific ....( and in this case 9 d is a set of specific exceptions ) these come into force.

In summary
Knock on = scrum opposition feed, except from restart/FK punt/charge down where the knock on is ignored.

Wait til 'unaware' spectators start shouting otherwise.

My advise is to have a checklist of ' key ' matters to discuss with the referee BEFORE his PMB, to aid the uniformity quest.

PS.. This is only my opinion, from reading, I havent refereed u11 this season yet.

Browner
19-09-14, 14:09
A missed passed bounced and went into touch so I ruled Free Pass under 7a-i but was later told about 12d so it should have been a scrum.

However 12a mentions none of this so in order to know what you can/can't award a scrum for you have to read the entire document.



Assuming the pass that went into touch 'wasn't thrown forward' , then I agree with your straightforward award of a Free Pass restart under 7.1.a.

Why would anyone think otherwise?

Stormkahn
19-09-14, 14:09
Assuming the pass that went into touch 'wasn't thrown forward' , then I agree with your straightforward award of a Free Pass restart under 7.1.a.

Why would anyone think otherwise?

sorry my fault, going of the top of my head so gave you a bum reference...

The ball was passed backwards and touched the ground before going out.

7ai Talks of a FP for ball into touch.
11d tells us it's a scum if it goes to ground 1st.
12a (offenses that lead to a scum) doesn't mention this.

Therefore we have concluded that a pass that goes out on the full is an FP, if it touches the ground 1st it's a scrum. I'm sure there's some logic :)

Cheers,

Dave.

Nottingham Corsairs

Browner
19-09-14, 16:09
sorry my fault, going of the top of my head so gave you a bum reference...

The ball was passed backwards and touched the ground before going out.

7ai Talks of a FP for ball into touch.
11d tells us it's a scum if it goes to ground 1st.
12a (offenses that lead to a scum) doesn't mention this.

Therefore we have concluded that a pass that goes out on the full is an FP, if it touches the ground 1st it's a scrum. I'm sure there's some logic :)

Cheers,

Dave.

Nottingham Corsairs

11d prevails then.

What a strange ( unnecessary? ) Variation



CoarseHairs :-)

http://jokideo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/The-pubic-hare.jpg

AntonyGoodman
19-09-14, 18:09
Anyway;
8m 1 + 2 rule in action and the requirement for the ball to be passed away from the contact area if a ruck has been formed. (8m-ii).

Neither mentions what the penalty is and we've been unable to find anything relevant elsewhere so we're going with a free kick under 5a-i Foul Play.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

Dave.

I agree with yourself and Browner: FK

Thanks,

Antony

AntonyGoodman
19-09-14, 18:09
12a ii is indeed the normal law, but (in the main, when the RFU have taken the trouble to write a separate section ) whenever you have a specific ....( and in this case 9 d is a set of specific exceptions ) these come into force.

In summary
Knock on = scrum opposition feed, except from restart/FK punt/charge down where the knock on is ignored.

Wait til 'unaware' spectators start shouting otherwise.

My advise is to have a checklist of ' key ' matters to discuss with the referee BEFORE his PMB, to aid the uniformity quest.

PS.. This is only my opinion, from reading, I havent refereed u11 this season yet.

9) d) Other than from a restart, a free kick or charge down, if from a kick the ball is played in flight by a player of the non-kicking team and knocked forward, a scrum will be awarded to the non-kicking team from where the ball is touched.

From a free kick or a restart, a knock on is a knock on and it is scrum to the kicking team as per 12a ii.

It is only kicks from open play that 9d applies, and the scrum goes to the receiving team if they knock on.

This is how I read it anyway :)

Thanks,

Antony

AntonyGoodman
19-09-14, 18:09
sorry my fault, going of the top of my head so gave you a bum reference...

The ball was passed backwards and touched the ground before going out.

7ai Talks of a FP for ball into touch.
11d tells us it's a scum if it goes to ground 1st.
12a (offenses that lead to a scum) doesn't mention this.

Therefore we have concluded that a pass that goes out on the full is an FP, if it touches the ground 1st it's a scrum. I'm sure there's some logic :)

Cheers,

Dave.

Nottingham Corsairs

I think this is a throwback to when they toyed with having scrums for ball in touch, they just haven't updated the 11d rule so that it is consistant with 7a.

I agree that you have correctly interpreted the rules as written, just not sure that that is what they should say.

Thanks,

Antony

Stormkahn
21-09-14, 15:09
Thanks for all the responses guys, your a great help :-)

Today's question from training; we had a restart were the kick was on the full rather than a drop kick under 4a. I waved play on to keep the game flowing and in practice it doesn't seem to matter if it's a drop kick or not.

We discussed it afterwards and shrugged. Technically a breech of 4a? If so the only applicable rule appears to be 4a i foul play and a FK to the receiving team?

Cheers,

Dave.

Dixie
21-09-14, 16:09
We discussed it afterwards and shrugged.
Lot to be said for this approach. Don't forget the purpose of the game at this age group - enjoyment and education. If the drop-out is taken with the wrong type of kick, don't shy away from bringing it back to be taken with the correct kick. If the players simply can't drop-kick, they need to learn this skill sharpish - but that's for the training ground. Let's not kill the game for them by penalising every cock-up.

Browner
21-09-14, 16:09
Thanks for all the responses guys, your a great help :-)

Today's question from training; we had a restart were the kick was on the full rather than a drop kick under 4a. I waved play on to keep the game flowing and in practice it doesn't seem to matter if it's a drop kick or not.

We discussed it afterwards and shrugged. Technically a breech of 4a? If so the only applicable rule appears to be 4a i foul play and a FK to the receiving team?

Cheers,

Dave.

If you're saying that there isn't a specific U11s variation saying otherwise (????)

Then , just give the receiving team ... ' Option' of (oppo Kick again ,or scrum with their own feed) cos surely general law 13.1(a) applies .

AntonyGoodman
22-09-14, 16:09
With the restart, I have already given a team 'another go' because they got the kick wrong (not in the rules). I am sure this will be different when we get to the end of the season and it's a tournament ;) Then I will be sticking to Browner's version of things.

Thanks,

Antony

Browner
22-09-14, 16:09
With the restart, I have already given a team 'another go' because they got the kick wrong (not in the rules). I am sure this will be different when we get to the end of the season and it's a tournament ;) Then I will be sticking to Browner's version of things.

Thanks,

Antony

It might still come as a shock to players who've had a second attempt all season ! , personally I don't support this approach, most kickers learn quick and then never repeat the error.

Its tough love !

AntonyGoodman
22-09-14, 19:09
You may be right. I do at least say that you wouldn't normally get another chance, and let them know what they did wrong.

Thanks,

Antony

AntonyGoodman
23-09-14, 16:09
Here's my next question:

When you have awarded a free kick, can the attacking team 'tap and go' even though the defending team have not retired 7m. If they can do this, do we only blow for offside if one of those players within 7m interferes with play? Seeing as the penalty for this offence is another FK, it seems as if we would be best saying that there is no tap and go, you just have to wait until the defending team have retired the 7m.

Thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

Antony

Stormkahn
23-09-14, 19:09
Here's my next question:

When you have awarded a free kick, can the attacking team 'tap and go' even though the defending team have not retired 7m. If they can do this, do we only blow for offside if one of those players within 7m interferes with play? Seeing as the penalty for this offence is another FK, it seems as if we would be best saying that there is no tap and go, you just have to wait until the defending team have retired the 7m.

Thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

Antony

I think you're right in that a quick tap is legal, it's worth doing even if the defending team draw the off side because they'll still make a few yards.

We certainly think its the best option inside the oposition 22 but outside a kick to gain is probably better.

2p

Dave.

AntonyGoodman
30-09-14, 14:09
So, went to the Under 11's tournament at Wasps on Sunday morning - queried a couple of rules with one of the refs after the game who trotted out the "no idea mate" defence and told me to go and have a word with the control tent. Popped over there and was discussing the restart rules, clearly he thought one thing and me another, I said lets check in the rules, he agreed, and he pulled out a copy of the rules from last season :)

Poor show from a Premiership organised event.

crossref
30-09-14, 15:09
if it was Sunday morning, at Twyford Avenue, it will have been organised by Wasps Amateurs, not by the premiership club of the same name.

take your point though.

Browner
30-09-14, 15:09
It might still come as a shock to players who've had a second attempt all season ! , personally I don't support this approach, most kickers learn quick and then never repeat the error.

Its tough love !

As if to emphasise this LEARNING point, after an earlier PMB forewarning.... I issued a scrum following a QTP off the knee, when same player repeated the ' incorrectly taken' FK 7 mins later, it drew another scrum - chastisement from his teammates, and a shout from the HC/DoR of ' its a level 9 match referee'

Guess what.....I've got them again in two weeks, wonder if the DoR will have educated them in the interim ! LOL.

AntonyGoodman
30-09-14, 16:09
if it was Sunday morning, at Twyford Avenue, it will have been organised by Wasps Amateurs, not by the premiership club of the same name.

take your point though.

I know, but has still got their name and branding all over the event. I am sure the marketing department would not be pleased.

For me it was just sloppy, refs that had no clear instruction on the new rules, or hadn't seen the rules, and bad organisation of the games. On the plus side the boys all played well and the weather was fantastic.

Antony

crossref
30-09-14, 16:09
IFor me it was just sloppy, refs that had no clear instruction on the new rules, or hadn't seen the rules, and bad organisation of the games. On the plus side the boys all played well and the weather was fantastic.

Antony

sounds like a completely typical mini tournament!

AntonyGoodman
30-09-14, 16:09
sounds like a completely typical mini tournament!

Yes, I know what you mean. Just shouldn't have to be like this. In many ways the tournaments run by the 'smaller' clubs where the coaches get allocated games to ref work better, as at least they have half a clue about what the rules are, or at least read them :)

Thanks,

Antony

Browner
30-09-14, 17:09
Its not new............, but we played in the final of a tourno at U11, (those who know how quickly those matches are over) where we go one try up via a QTP score. Brill, that'll fill our confidence and drain theirs....

The oppo coaches (x4) then all lambasted the referee with "its not allowed" & even encroached the FoP whereby the referee cancelled the try and told me that he was doing so because he wasn't sure....!! I of course knew that QTP were allowable at U11, Hense my players played with such urgency.

I requested that he award the try, and after the match IF it wasn't allowed then they could strike it from the game. He wouldnt, it was of course, and we lost the final 1-2, from being 0-2 down.

After the final, the organiser and referee apologised for their error.

I accepted the error which i didnt consider Law knowledge, but was the way the opposition had influenced the cancellation and the refusal to adopt my common sense solution to their lack of knowledge mid match.

Not that it still irks 5 years later !!

AntonyGoodman
30-09-14, 20:09
Great story, exactly the kind of frustrating stuff that gets on my nerves!

Thanks,

Antony

Stormkahn
01-10-14, 07:10
Its not new............, but we played in the final of a tourno at U11, (those who know how quickly those matches are over) where we go one try up via a QTP score. Brill, that'll fill our confidence and drain theirs....

The oppo coaches (x4) then all lambasted the referee with "its not allowed" & even encroached the FoP whereby the referee cancelled the try and told me that he was doing so because he wasn't sure....!! I of course knew that QTP were allowable at U11, Hense my players played with such urgency.

I requested that he award the try, and after the match IF it wasn't allowed then they could strike it from the game. He wouldnt, it was of course, and we lost the final 1-2, from being 0-2 down.

After the final, the organiser and referee apologised for their error.

I accepted the error which i didnt consider Law knowledge, but was the way the opposition had influenced the cancellation and the refusal to adopt my common sense solution to their lack of knowledge mid match.

Not that it still irks 5 years later !!

I think we must all have seen this kind of thing and know it hurts :(

Just from a noobie point of view I'd say that knowing the rules is only half the battle, managing the game is the rest and your ref on this occasion fumbled it. I'll no doubt be faced with a similar situation and I'm going to stick to my guns, we can debate my poor knowledge after the game. If I'm wrong it'll be wrong for both sides. 6.4.a

cheers,

Dave.

Stormkahn
01-10-14, 07:10
Yes, I know what you mean. Just shouldn't have to be like this. In many ways the tournaments run by the 'smaller' clubs where the coaches get allocated games to ref work better, as at least they have half a clue about what the rules are, or at least read them :)

Thanks,

Antony

This'll be me this weekend, 1st time in anger at Kesteven. Wish me luck and feel free to set me straight! :)

cheers,

Dave.

crossref
01-10-14, 09:10
I think we must all have seen this kind of thing and know it hurts :(

Just from a noobie point of view I'd say that knowing the rules is only half the battle, managing the game is the rest and your ref on this occasion fumbled it. I'll no doubt be faced with a similar situation and I'm going to stick to my guns, we can debate my poor knowledge after the game. If I'm wrong it'll be wrong for both sides. 6.4.a

cheers,

Dave.

Here's the thing though - at U11 level everyone knows that many of the refs are inexperienced, and just starting out their journey into this exciting world, and will make mistakes and will not - yet - be great at managing the game (and the challenge here, make no mistake, is not the 10 year olds, it's the coaches/parents) All that comes with experience, and difficulties starting out are expected and accepted.
BUT no matter how inexperienced, there's no excuse for not knowing the Laws/Regs/Tournament Rules -- they can be researched and learned in a few hours.

Good Luck Stormkahn ! Enjoy it.

AntonyGoodman
01-10-14, 09:10
BUT no matter how inexperienced, there's no excuse for not knowing the Laws/Regs/Tournament Rules -- they can be researched and learned in a few hours.

Good Luck Stormkahn ! Enjoy it.

Well said. Agree completely. I will even be sympathetic to someone who has read the rules but has a difference of opinion because of the poor way the RFU rules are set out, particularly early in the season when we are all trying to work out what is what. At least we can have a discussion about it. Someone who has not read the rules, or made any attempt to work out what the rules should be, that is the one that makes me cross.

Thanks,

Antony

davidgh
06-10-14, 07:10
To aid in the management of the game, and the education of the ill informed who give strong opinions on the rules at every opportunity, I recommend carrying a full set of rules and age variations in your bag for post match discussions, not least with tournament organisers!

Not for use during the game!

Dixie
06-10-14, 12:10
I recommend carrying a full set of rules and age variations in your bag for post match discussions, not least with tournament organisers! Was anyone at the large Windsor tournament this weekend? How well did they do on the new rules of play?

AntonyGoodman
12-10-14, 09:10
Was anyone at the large Windsor tournament this weekend? How well did they do on the new rules of play?

No, but we just did the one at Sarries this weekend.

Much better organised than Wasps, and the reffing was much, much better. BUT, they still were not implementing the new knock on rules or the fact that the scrum half can run from the back of the ruck. Some were giving scrums for ball in touch, some free pass. Nothing that changed the result of the game, and they were at least clear on the direction they had been given and they communicated this well to the boys.

Thanks,

Antony

Stormkahn
12-10-14, 09:10
We were at Kesteven last weekend and the instuction was very clear; the scum half must pass rule was highlighted and high tackles were upgraded from FP to FK.

It was well run, gloriously sunny and I had loads of support from all sides on my debut as ref. I found it a very positive experience so a big thanks to Kesteven B and Sleaford for that.

The only down side was that it has now gone noncompetitive which we all agree with for the younger ages but this age group is getting a mixed message and has been playing competitive for years so it feels like a step back.


Cheers,

Dave.

AntonyGoodman
12-10-14, 13:10
We were at Kesteven last weekend and the instuction was very clear; the scum half must pass rule was highlighted and high tackles were upgraded from FP to FK.


When you say scrum half must pass was highlighted, what do you mean? Highlighted in the rules? Highlighted as a tournament amendment? As a directive from the RFU? There is nothing in the NRoP that state that the scrum half must pass at the back of the scrum, only from a ruck.

Same sort of questions for the change of thought for a high tackle change of rules.

Thanks for the update, really good to hear how others are doing this.

Thanks,

Antony

Stormkahn
12-10-14, 13:10
When you say scrum half must pass was highlighted, what do you mean? Highlighted in the rules? Highlighted as a tournament amendment? As a directive from the RFU? There is nothing in the NRoP that state that the scrum half must pass at the back of the scrum, only from a ruck.

Same sort of questions for the change of thought for a high tackle change of rules.

Thanks for the update, really good to hear how others are doing this.

Thanks,

Antony

Antony; they specifically pointed out rules 8n &o to make sure everybody was on the same page.

We don't actually play with positions as such so the reference to scum half was to the lad who was fulfilling the role at the base of the ruck really not the scum.

The high tackle change was for the festival and the local body has gone noncompetitive in this age group so they were pushing safety and stamping down on dangerous play. Nothing controversial really.

Dave.

AntonyGoodman
12-10-14, 14:10
Thanks for the clarification.

Good to have your contributions :)

Thanks,

Antony

Dan Cottrell
17-10-14, 09:10
Sorry to continue this thread...
I was coaching at a conference yesterday and still had to field these questions on the NROP (PS I am a big advocate)

1. U11s. What is a maul exactly?
"A maul is formed when the BC and T are joined by two additional players from either the defending or attacking team."
Does that mean it could be BC+T plus two defenders?
2. U11s. A ruck is formed of 2 v 2 players, but not 1 v 2 or 2 v 1, or 1 v 1?
3. The next arriving player must pass the ball away from a ruck. But if the ball is out of the ruck he can pick and go. So he could drag it out of the ruck with his foot. Now the ball is out and he can pick and go (m)iii.
4. At 10s or 11s. Both teams ruck, but the attacking team (say), drive over the ball and the opposition hardly engage, in fact conspire to hardly ruck at all. The opposition then step in and take the ball...my own interpretation is that the attack have a free go at the ball, but I think I might be taken to task for this one.

Who does one contact for the "official" line on this?

didds
17-10-14, 11:10
seems to me that definition in 1) is mangled and does not necessarily reflect the laws of the game.

a maul to me would be attack1(BC)+D1+A2+D2

didds

Phil E
17-10-14, 11:10
seems to me that definition in 1) is mangled and does not necessarily reflect the laws of the game.

a maul to me would be attack1(BC)+D1+A2+D2

didds

...................or ball carrier, plus one from each side.

A maul begins when a player carrying the ball is held by one or more opponents,
and one or more of the ball carrier’s team mates bind on the ball carrier.

Stormkahn
17-10-14, 12:10
Sorry to continue this thread...
I was coaching at a conference yesterday and still had to field these questions on the NROP (PS I am a big advocate)

1. U11s. What is a maul exactly?
"A maul is formed when the BC and T are joined by two additional players from either the defending or attacking team."
Does that mean it could be BC+T plus two defenders?
2. U11s. A ruck is formed of 2 v 2 players, but not 1 v 2 or 2 v 1, or 1 v 1?
3. The next arriving player must pass the ball away from a ruck. But if the ball is out of the ruck he can pick and go. So he could drag it out of the ruck with his foot. Now the ball is out and he can pick and go (m)iii.
4. At 10s or 11s. Both teams ruck, but the attacking team (say), drive over the ball and the opposition hardly engage, in fact conspire to hardly ruck at all. The opposition then step in and take the ball...my own interpretation is that the attack have a free go at the ball, but I think I might be taken to task for this one.

Who does one contact for the "official" line on this?

My 2p;

1) Yes (which will also certainly mean the defenders will get the ball one way or another).
2) By the letter of the law yes but...I have been advised that you should call ruck when there's any contest for the ball so 1v1 would count. The reason being that at this age group they just don't form clean rucks and by declaring it a ruck immediately you create a clear situation for off side etc. Otherwise it seems to end up a free for all most of the time. 8m holds an element of contradiction to because it implies a 2v0 is also a ruck.
3) If he's dragging it out he's not passing so blow your whistle!
4) If they rucked at all it's a ruck, as per 2 call a ruck immediately then the situation doesn't occur.

cheers,

Dave.

AntonyGoodman
17-10-14, 15:10
Sorry to continue this thread...
I was coaching at a conference yesterday and still had to field these questions on the NROP (PS I am a big advocate)

1. U11s. What is a maul exactly?
"A maul is formed when the BC and T are joined by two additional players from either the defending or attacking team."
Does that mean it could be BC+T plus two defenders?
2. U11s. A ruck is formed of 2 v 2 players, but not 1 v 2 or 2 v 1, or 1 v 1?
3. The next arriving player must pass the ball away from a ruck. But if the ball is out of the ruck he can pick and go. So he could drag it out of the ruck with his foot. Now the ball is out and he can pick and go (m)iii.
4. At 10s or 11s. Both teams ruck, but the attacking team (say), drive over the ball and the opposition hardly engage, in fact conspire to hardly ruck at all. The opposition then step in and take the ball...my own interpretation is that the attack have a free go at the ball, but I think I might be taken to task for this one.



1. If you take the rules literally, then I read this as any combination of four players (but no more than six).
2. This is just wrong, I would go with @Stormkhan and say any contest 1 vs 1 up to, but no more than, 2 vs 2 is a ruck.
3. Agree with @Stormkhan
4. Is a tough one in the adult game, here are the things that I am thinking apply for us:

U11 NRoP: 13. b)At the tackle, offside occurs at the time of the tackle where the offside line is the hindmost part of the tackled player and tackler. All the other players from the defending team must retire towards their own goal line until they are behind the hindmost part of the tackled player and tackler.

IRB: 15.6 (d) At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal line. i.e. Must come through the 'gate'

So in your scenario (if I read it right): Red BC gets tackled by blue, next red player arrives and stands over the ball waiting to ruck but no blue player commits, so no ruck.

Blue can't just wander round the side and pick up the ball because of 15.6 (d) above, to contest the ball they must go through the 'gate' and engage in a ruck with the red player standing over the ball. Technically this red player over the ball could be called for obstructing, but in practice this never gets called as far as I can see.

Thanks,

Antony

Browner
17-10-14, 15:10
My 2p;

1) Yes (which will also certainly mean the defenders will get the ball one way or another).
2) By the letter of the law yes but...I have been advised that you should call ruck when there's any contest for the ball so 1v1 would count. The reason being that at this age group they just don't form clean rucks and by declaring it a ruck immediately you create a clear situation for off side etc. Otherwise it seems to end up a free for all most of the time. 8m holds an element of contradiction to because it implies a 2v0 is also a ruck.
3) If he's dragging it out he's not passing so blow your whistle!
4) If they rucked at all it's a ruck, as per 2 call a ruck immediately then the situation doesn't occur.

cheers,

Dave.

Q? what is the point of the RFU (presumably deliberately??) varying the standard Law definition at U11, if some U11 practicioners merely ignore it and revert to the standard Maul/Ruck construction criteria , presumably some coaches/refs will still vary.... and this proliferates referee/player confusion ?:nono:

Either lobby the RFU to align to 'standard Law' or whistle to the variation ... Uniformity must surely be the aim on such a basic age level.

Or maybe preparing the u11s players for a lifetime of referee interpretation difference IS their learning ?!!? :shrug:

AntonyGoodman
17-10-14, 17:10
I have asked for clarification through the club - I will wait and see what comes back.

Thanks,

Antony

didds
17-10-14, 17:10
sorry Phil... yes, i agree. i got myself confused!

didds

AntonyGoodman
17-10-14, 18:10
Q? what is the point of the RFU (presumably deliberately??) varying the standard Law definition at U11, if some U11 practicioners merely ignore it and revert to the standard Maul/Ruck construction criteria , presumably some coaches/refs will still vary.... and this proliferates referee/player confusion ?:nono:

Either lobby the RFU to align to 'standard Law' or whistle to the variation ... Uniformity must surely be the aim on such a basic age level.

Or maybe preparing the u11s players for a lifetime of referee interpretation difference IS their learning ?!!? :shrug:

I think it is clear that in some cases the RFU rules are just poorly written and not clear enough. I think as long as you talk to the opposition before the game about these sort of known points of potential difference, and agree how they are going to be reff'd, we are all ok. Just wish someone had proofed the rules properly before releasing them on us :)

Thanks to this forum I am building a list of 'discussion points' to have with opposition before the game(s) to make sure everthing is clear and agreed.

Thanks,

Antony

Browner
17-10-14, 20:10
I think it is clear that in some cases the RFU rules are just poorly written and not clear enough. I think as long as you talk to the opposition before the game about these sort of known points of potential difference, and agree how they are going to be reff'd, we are all ok. Just wish someone had proofed the rules properly before releasing them on us :)

Thanks to this forum I am building a list of 'discussion points' to have with opposition before the game(s) to make sure everthing is clear and agreed.

Thanks,

Antony

Even with 'pre match' discussion, you will still get variable application based on coach/referee preference UNLESS you get countrywide uniformity.

Maul & Ruck looks clearly written, albeit they vary the standard law position, & to this end RFU regs should surely be followed at this age?!

AntonyGoodman
17-10-14, 21:10
Maul & Ruck looks clearly written, albeit they vary the standard law position, & to this end RFU regs should surely be followed at this age?!

Do you think that they meant to say that no ruck is formed unless you have a 2 vs 2 contest for the ball? What is it called when you have a 1 vs 1? Is it even legal if it is not a ruck? Don't think this is what they meant at all. Happy to have it all confirmed by the RFU, or someone, but I can't see how this is even workable. Happy to hear how you think the breakdown might work.

Thanks,

Antony

Browner
17-10-14, 22:10
Do you think that they meant to say that no ruck is formed unless you have a 2 vs 2 contest for the ball? What is it called when you have a 1 vs 1? Is it even legal if it is not a ruck? Don't think this is what they meant at all. Happy to have it all confirmed by the RFU, or someone, but I can't see how this is even workable. Happy to hear how you think the breakdown might work.

Thanks,

Antony

Anthony, we've had similar debates on other age grade regs..... Deliberate or inadvertent error...debate

Do I think the RFU spent time with the various focus groups concocting an age specific set of rules and then errored on the wording....no I don't.

I think it more likely that the want to phase the players towards the adult game gradually.

If the RFU confirm they've errored, then please inform us, its always possible (albeit I believe in this case its deliberate wording rather than error)

In the meantime, if the ball is on the floor then the prescribed number of players 8c says x2 from each side can try to push each other off it.....they won't know any different so it should be acheiveable, they can progress to 1x1 rucking and then to saddlerolling/collapsing when they are older ! :-)

Stormkahn
18-10-14, 13:10
Q? what is the point of the RFU (presumably deliberately??) varying the standard Law definition at U11, if some U11 practicioners merely ignore it and revert to the standard Maul/Ruck construction criteria , presumably some coaches/refs will still vary.... and this proliferates referee/player confusion ?:nono:

Either lobby the RFU to align to 'standard Law' or whistle to the variation ... Uniformity must surely be the aim on such a basic age level.

Or maybe preparing the u11s players for a lifetime of referee interpretation difference IS their learning ?!!? :shrug:

All good points and I don't really have the experience to answer with confidence.

How do we feed back or lobby the RFU over this?

What I have seen so far is that you just don't get a nice clean 2v2 ruck, mostly it's less which means it's still open play.

With BC + T + 2 +2 you have nearly a 3rd of the team involved and generally they're smart enough to stay out. I have very rarely seen a ruck formed as per the nrop. Since its not a ruck players can run through from an onside position and pick the ball up?

Allowing rucks to be called for 1v1 clears up the situation for me.

Dave.

AntonyGoodman
05-11-14, 13:11
Just to follow up with up you guys. I asked our local RFU to clarify some of these discussion points, they disagreed amongst themselves about the regulations :)

This has now gone to Twickenham, I will post back again when/if I get an update.

Thanks for everybody's input, it really helps for us newbies to get some alternative thoughts from all who have contributed here.

Antony

AntonyGoodman
05-12-14, 12:12
So had the reply from HQ to clarify a few things, I am sure you will be receiving the updated rules via your club in the usual email chain manner :)

Scrum half must pass from the base of the scrum
12. g) Clarification Amendment – November 2014
The scrum half must pass the ball from the base of the scrum. He/She cannot run with the ball.

Clarified the ambiguity question that Dan raised in this thread about free pass or scrum?
7. a) ii. A free pass is used: once forward momentum has been stopped and the ball has not been played away from the contact area.
Clarification Amendment – November 2014
Scrum at incomplete maul/ruck (not a free pass).

For the ruck they have added this clarification:
8. m) Clarification Amendment – November 2014
Progression of actions for supporting players at ruck.
Up to two supporting players may:
i. Rip the ball from the ball carrier but must then pass the ball immediately to a team mate; or
ii. Pick up the ball and pass away from the contact area; or
iii. If a ruck is not formed, pick up the ball and run; or
iv. Join to form a ruck but must do so from their own side (i.e. from the direction of their own goal line) and drive over the ball, taking their immediate opponent away from the ball
At the back of a ruck the next arriving player must pass the ball to another player.

The maul regulation still reads like this (my emphasis):

8. b) A “maul” is formed when the ball carrier and tackler are joined by two additional players from either the defending or attacking team. No more than 3 players from either side (including the ball carrier and tackler) can be involved in the maul.

I notice that at the edited regulations at U10, U12 and U13 all read like this (my emphasis):

A “maul” is formed when the ball carrier and tackler are joined by one additional player from either the defending or attacking team. {insert line here about numbers allowed for the age group}

I have gone back to the RFU with my thoughts on this maul question and will update again when I get something back.

Still, at least that clears up three of the questions we raised here :)

Thanks,

Antony