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crossref
03-11-14, 15:11
Yellow scrum, yellow win the ball and are planning a #8 pickup

here's a great diagram of exactly the situation ..

http://www.irblaws.com/images/laws/scrum-offside-en.jpg

seems to me I have two conflincting pieces of information -

(b) Offside for scrum-halves. When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of that team is offside if both feet are in front of the ball while it is still in the scrum. If the scrum half has only one foot in front of the ball, the scrum half is not offside.
which tells me that the offside line for the yellow SH is actually the ball, the same as for the Blue SH

But the diagram has the yellow SH offside line being the back foot -- but there doesn't seem to be anything in the text of the Laws that supports that.


BACKGROUND - this came up in my game on Saturday where blue scrum complained to me that he was being obstructed , and at half time asked me to explain the Laws to him -- where exactly -- he wanted to know, can the yellow scrum half legally stand, when his #8 is going to pick up

So talk me through how you referee this --

ChrisR
03-11-14, 17:11
The diagram is not supported by law but is supported by common sense.

Allowing the ball winning SH to place a foot in front of the ball facilitates him picking up and serving the ball. Especially if has a dominant right hand (or worthless left) and wants to serve to his #10 on his right.

If he is not going to serve, as in a #8 take, then he needs to drop beyond the #8s foot, as in the diagram, so as not to obstruct his opposite number. You complaining #9 has a valid point.

The diagram got it right but the Laws are missing the written requirement

OB..
03-11-14, 17:11
The wording is more precise than a still shot of a moving situation. The offside line for the scrum halves moves with the ball. The non-ball-winning scum half must keep both feet behind the ball. The ball-winning scrum half is allowed to have one (but only one) foot in front of the ball to enable him to pick up and pass effectively.

If the non-ball-winning scrum half goes round to the other side of the scrum, his offside line is the back foot.

crossref
03-11-14, 17:11
The diagram, of course, is from the Law book.

So the diagram in the Law Book contradicts the text of the Laws.
- marauder says go with the diagram
- OB says go with the text

any other offers?

TheBFG
03-11-14, 18:11
"manage it" :wink:

Rushforth
03-11-14, 18:11
scum half

Freudian?

crossref
03-11-14, 18:11
not helpful BFG !
On the pitch, I did manage it. I told the SH what would be happening and no more problems.

Now, next day, back on the forum I want to know which way to manage it .. per the text or per the diagram ?

Dixie
03-11-14, 18:11
Look at any game in the Autumn Internationals. You will see the elite refs routinely allowing the feeding SH to stand in an offside position well ahead of the ball at a #8 pickup, with both feet and all his body offside. If a complaint is made, the ref will say "all good", or words to that effect. This is what BFG calls "managing it" - and what the non-feeding SH will call (at best) "a f*!^ing useless ref who doesn't know his ar$e from his elb0w" - or (at worst) "cheating biased bar steward".

The purpose of the law is, as has been mentioned, to allow the SH to get into a position to distribute ("serve") without getting smashed while adjusting his feet. It is not there to allow the SH to obstruct his opponent while the #8 takes liberties unchallenged. So allow the first and ping the second - responding as ever to those who point out that Craig Joubert and St Nige allowed it every time on Saturday.

ChrisR
03-11-14, 18:11
Law 10.1(c) Blocking the tackler. A player must not intentionally move or stand in a position that prevents an opponent from tackling a ball carrier.

As soon as the #8 picks up the ball he is a BC. Nothing excludes the SH from this, scrum or otherwise.

crossref
03-11-14, 19:11
Law 10.1(c) Blocking the tackler. A player must not intentionally move or stand in a position that prevents an opponent from tackling a ball carrier.

As soon as the #8 picks up the ball he is a BC. Nothing excludes the SH from this, scrum or otherwise.

would you allow the yellow SH to stand where he is in the diagram, which I think is supposed to show him in a legal position

Browner
03-11-14, 19:11
Well spotted crossref, ( im now on notice when its flagged) ...ahem, dear IRB please amend picture to correctly reflect law.

.....

So, in summary

Yellow Scrum half ISNT offside with one foot ahead of the ball.....see 20.12 (b) neither does he have to be passing the ball to be positioning his feet in that way.

But he can be obstructing under 10.1(c) IF he C&O blocks the blue 9 from tackling Y8.



All overridden by 8's being liked, and 9's not so much .... :-)

ChrisR
03-11-14, 19:11
Is he obstructing? If he's behind the #8's foot he's probably not so he's OK.

If he gets into the pocket to the right of the #8 and then the #8 takes to the left (Doh!) into the opps SH then his positioning was immaterial.

If he starts behind the #8, legal in the diagram, the #8 takes to the right and the SH then steps into the path of his opp number then he's back to obstructing, legal position notwithstanding.

crossref
03-11-14, 19:11
The diagram is not supported by law but is supported by common sense.

Allowing the ball winning SH to place a foot in front of the ball facilitates him picking up and serving the ball. Especially if has a dominant right hand (or worthless left) and wants to serve to his #10 on his right.

If he is not going to serve, as in a #8 take, then he needs to drop beyond the #8s foot, as in the diagram, so as not to obstruct his opposite number. You complaining #9 has a valid point.

The diagram got it right but the Laws are missing the written requirement

Actually Marauder - I like your first answer which sums up your position nicely

hmm - the Law book needs to be fixed.
I think the answer is : this not an offside problem, it's an obstruction problem, and the diagram shows a completely erroneous offside line that doesn't actually exist

Pinky
04-11-14, 00:11
I think the diagram is OK except it does not show the normal o/s line for Y9 - 1 foot behind ball. The back foot o/s lines apply to both 9s if they move away from the scrum or go to the other side. So if Y9 goes left away from scrum, his o/s line becomes back foot.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
04-11-14, 09:11
Actually I never mentioned it during the PMB threads but during the PMB with SH FRs and Capt I tell SH when it's (the ball) gone in whether you've won it or lost it get on side

I will occasionally use "behind the ball SH" (to both) basically to keep them apart.

It usually works and no SH has asked "where is my offside line?"

I'll manage it when they ask.

crossref
04-11-14, 09:11
The diagram has a offside line for the yellow scrum half at the back feet.
I think thats wrong , the offside line is the ball.

The Fat
04-11-14, 11:11
The diagram has a offside line for the yellow scrum half at the back feet.
I think thats wrong , the offside line is the ball.

The offside line for Y9 in the diagram is accompanied with a note that the offside line shown is for when the Y9 is not playing the ball. This is correct if talking about the Y8 picking up.

Dixie explained this in his 2nd paragraph back at post #8.

What most here are ignoring is 20.12(b) which is immediately before the diagram shown in the law book. This covers the offside line for Y9 while the ball is still in the scrum. The diagram covers a different scenario however, some may misinterpret the intention based on the wording "Offside line for yellow scrum half when not playing the ball". Obviously some are seeing that as including when the ball is still in the scrum. I can see how some would read it that way.


(b) Offside for scrum-halves. When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of that team is offside if both feet are in front of the ball while it is still in the scrum. If the scrum half has only one foot in front of the ball, the scrum half is not offside.

Sanction: Penalty kick

crossref
04-11-14, 11:11
The offside line for Y9 in the diagram is accompanied with a note that the offside line shown is for when the Y9 is not playing the ball. This is correct if talking about the Y8 picking up.

Is there really an offside line for the yellow SH in the position in the diagram ? If there is, it's an offside line that's not mentioned in the text of the Laws...

Or is the real issue not an offside one but a general issue of obstruction - the yellow SH must not obstruct blue when his #8 is picking up.

Perhaps it's just semantics, but if I was to ping yellow in that diagram
- I WOULD NOT say, "yellow 9 offside, must be behind back feet" as I feel that's shaky in Law, relying on the text in a diagram, not supported by an actual Law
- I WOULD say "yellow 9, obstruction - in front of ball carrier, blocking the opposition"

The Fat
04-11-14, 12:11
Is there really an offside line for the yellow SH in the position in the diagram ? If there is, it's an offside line that's not mentioned in the text of the Laws...

Or is the real issue not an offside one but a general issue of obstruction - the yellow SH must not obstruct blue when his #8 is picking up.

Perhaps it's just semantics, but if I was to ping yellow in that diagram
- I WOULD NOT say, "yellow 9 offside, must be behind back feet" as I feel that's shaky in Law, relying on the text in a diagram, not supported by an actual Law
- I WOULD say "yellow 9, obstruction - in front of ball carrier, blocking the opposition"

Well it's only going to be an issue if Y8 picks up and B9 attempts to get to Y8 i.e. Y9's offside position (he is in front of a team mate carrying the ball) prevents B9 from getting to the ball carrier (which is the definition of obstruction).

If you were to penalise Y9 for the material effect, then yes I agree that you will probably sell it as obstruction. In most cases, obstruction is caused by an offside player.

I do see your argument about "Does an offside line exist?"
In general play we say that a player is offside if he is in front of a team mate who is carrying the ball but we don't talk about an offside line per se even though technically, an offside line follows the ball carrier all over the field.

crossref
04-11-14, 13:11
agreed.

it's knid of important as in general play you are in an offside position when you are in front of a team mate carrying the ball
where there is a specific offside line you have to be behind it wherever the ball is, and whoever is carrying it.

Dixie
04-11-14, 15:11
The diagram has a offside line for the yellow scrum half at the back feet.
I think thats wrong , the offside line is the ball.

Agreed

Pinky
04-11-14, 22:11
Agreed

One foot behind whilst near the scrum and on put-in side. If Y9 moves away from scrum or round to other side osl is what is in the diagram - back foot of scrum.

crossref
04-11-14, 23:11
One foot behind whilst near the scrum and on put-in side. If Y9 moves away from scrum or round to other side osl is what is in the diagram - back foot of scrum.
The scrum half in the diagram is right alongside the scrum

Pinky
04-11-14, 23:11
The scrum half in the diagram is right alongside the scrum

As is the blue 9, so for neither of them is the rear foot osl relevant.

ChrisR
04-11-14, 23:11
The off-side line for the Y9 that is the hindmost foot only applies if he is not going to play the ball.

Makes sense as if Y9 ain't gonna play it then Y8 is and Y9 has to get out of the way of B9.

Problem is the written laws don't confirm that in Law 20 but Law 10.1(c) applies.

crossref
05-11-14, 00:11
The off-side line for the Y9 that is the hindmost foot only applies if he is not going to play the ball.

Makes sense as if Y9 ain't gonna play it then Y8 is and Y9 has to get out of the way of B9.

Problem is the written laws don't confirm that in Law 20 but Law 10.1(c) applies.

precisely -- Law 10.1 (c) doesn't establish an offside line. It covers obstruction

10.1(c) Blocking the tackler. A player must not intentionally move or stand in a position that prevents an opponent from tackling a ball carrier.

the diagram is wrong