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View Full Version : Uncontested Scrum at U15, Girls, Can the No 8 Pick Up?



Blackberry
10-11-14, 21:11
I reffed an U15 Girls game on Sunday, and read up the regs the night before.

During the game the scrums went uncontested. One team began using No 8 Pick ups, the other coach button holed me and said you're not allowed to pick up at No 8 from uncontested scrum.

As I had seen nothing confirming this in the regs the night before I politely ignored her interpretation.

Can anyone throw any light on this? Was I right, and its another myth?

crossref
10-11-14, 21:11
it's a common myth -- at all levels of rugby -- and you were quite right: the #8 can pick up. (make sure they stay bound properly until they do so, though...)

Phil E
10-11-14, 21:11
Another myth.
You were right.

JJ10
10-11-14, 21:11
Always a good one this and one I have got wrong in the past. Why is it at all age groups and adult rugby they think as soon as it is uncontested they cant pick up?

crossref
10-11-14, 22:11
Because some refs think so. :-(
So it is always worth asking

Browner
11-11-14, 00:11
Always a good one this and one I have got wrong in the past. Why is it at all age groups and adult rugby they think as soon as it is uncontested they cant pick up?

I can hazard a guess ...... Distant memory says that one introductory level (u9? u10?? ) no8s werent allowed to pick the ball up , its possible that at the same age the scrums were uncontested??? & Hense the 'age specific' reg gets life into a coaching group & that group metamorph into referees ....... ?

Just a theory.

Simon Thomas
11-11-14, 08:11
A common myth and a typical example of a self-appointed expert, who are often coaches with no refereeing qualification.

I refereed both the Hampshire U15 and U18 Girls County sides four or five seasons ago, in support of the growth of the Game in that demographic. I had previously been highly supportive of my daughter's rugby career as an U18 and adult at all levels.

the two age-group matches were on the same day same venue one after the other and all I had were coaches and parents telling me what I could or could not do or special Law interpretations before the match, during the match, and after the match. At the time I was a Level 7 referee, Chairman of the Society, and very active with the RFU Referees Dept.

I had read the RFUW documentation about U15 and U18 Girls rugby and was very aware of requirements.

I have not refereed an U15 or U18 Girls match since.

Blackberry
11-11-14, 08:11
A link to the RFU Regs pages might be winging its way to Oxfordshire :)

But sheeez, if I can find the regs for my one off involvement, can't the coaches do the same. Its like teaching your players all the laws except 17, 15 and 9 because you haven't found out what they are.

In fact...rant beginning here... when I get a junior appointment I will first confirm the coaches have read and coached to the age grade variations.

PS Simon I am in your neck of the woods tomorrow reffing an out and out friendly at Wide Lane, or given its hydrophobic tendencies, Trojans if there is anything damper than a light dew.

Womble
11-11-14, 10:11
Interesting , at the south west festival at frome this year the festival rule was no 8 pick up at u15 level. Maybe that is where th confusion lies x

crossref
11-11-14, 10:11
Interesting , at the south west festival at frome this year the festival rule was no 8 pick up at u15 level. Maybe that is where th confusion lies x

I hate festival-speecific rules.
- there is always a number of referees who weren't at the brieifing / weren't listening and are not aware of the rule, so mistakes are made
- there are always a number of coaches who weren't at the briefing / didn't read the hand outs and are not aware of the rule, who get steamed up
- there are always a number of 14 year old players who were not told about today's special rule and unintentionally break it and concede a gotcha PK that really isn't fair for children who are doing their best, playing to the Laws that apply every other Sunday that season.

Why do festival organisers think that - on the fly - they can invent better Laws for an age group than the Laws in the book?
How do they think that their special made-up Laws can ever be consistently understood and applied?

Just play the game, with the proper Laws, that are in the Law book.


(plus there is always an agenda: show me a festival organiser who thinks the U15 game is better without pick ups, I'll show you an coach of an u15 team who have great wings and outside centres, but a rubbish back-row...)

didds
11-11-14, 11:11
Always a good one this and one I have got wrong in the past. Why is it at all age groups and adult rugby they think as soon as it is uncontested they cant pick up?

presumably for the same reasons you did :-)

didds

didds
11-11-14, 11:11
I can hazard a guess ...... Distant memory says that one introductory level (u9? u10?? ) no8s werent allowed to pick the ball up , its possible that at the same age the scrums were uncontested??? & Hense the 'age specific' reg gets life into a coaching group & that group metamorph into referees ....... ?

Just a theory.

U12 in England certainly.

But that is a specific reg/law at that age group which is in no other (In England anyway).

didds

didds
11-11-14, 11:11
Interesting , at the south west festival at frome this year the festival rule was no 8 pick up at u15 level.

WTF?

WHYYYYY?????????

(rhetorical question)

didds

Womble
11-11-14, 11:11
WTF?

WHYYYYY?????????

(rhetorical question)

didds
Just the messenger ! Don't know why !

TheBFG
11-11-14, 14:11
I can hazard a guess ...... Distant memory says that one introductory level (u9? u10?? ) no8s werent allowed to pick the ball up , its possible that at the same age the scrums were uncontested??? & Hense the 'age specific' reg gets life into a coaching group & that group metamorph into referees ....... ?

Just a theory.

You're right there mate, but it's more to do with the fact that at u9/10/11 there is no #8 :wink: (well there didn't used to be!) they come in at 12, but still not allowed to pick up.

AntonyGoodman
11-11-14, 15:11
Yes, no 'Number 8' at U9 (no scrum), U10 or U11 (both 3 man uncontested). Nor likely will there be from next year for U12 NRoP (5 man uncontested).

Thanks,

Antony

Browner
11-11-14, 15:11
Yes, no 'Number 8' at U9 (no scrum), U10 or U11 (both 3 man uncontested). Nor likely will there be from next year for U12 NRoP (5 man uncontested).

Thanks,

Antony

To be Guessing at the source of the myth, we need two conditions to be satisfied ...uncontested & no #8 pick up. Where did that occur?

PS...5man uncontesteds at U12 on small pitches - really? ( where is the code for all shapes and sizes going?!!!!!)
Then at u13 8man, contests and full pitches

Will schools follow the u12 NRoP next year ......!!!??!!???

Browner
11-11-14, 15:11
You're right there mate, but it's more to do with the fact that at u9/10/11 there is no #8 :wink: (well there didn't used to be!) they come in at 12, but still not allowed to pick up.

But in isolation this would transfer into a general " no #8 pick up myth" , but it doesnt, so why at uncontesteds?? - its this aspect that is the catalyst to the myth me thinks.

AntonyGoodman
11-11-14, 16:11
To be Guessing at the source of the myth, we need two conditions to be satisfied ...uncontested & no #8 pick up. Where did that occur?

PS...5man uncontesteds at U12 on small pitches - really? ( where is the code for all shapes and sizes going?!!!!!)
Then at u13 8man, contests and full pitches

Will schools follow the u12 NRoP next year ......!!!??!!???

Didn't mean to be controversial, just replying to TheBFG's question.

Thanks,

Antony

Browner
11-11-14, 16:11
Didn't mean to be controversial, just replying to TheBFG's question.

Thanks,

Antony
& I wasn't being critical, more so 'enquiring' ???

didds
11-11-14, 17:11
Just the messenger ! Don't know why !

oh, that was understood womble! it wasn't aimed at you :-)

didds

didds
11-11-14, 17:11
PS...5man uncontesteds at U12 on small pitches - really? ( where is the code for all shapes and sizes going?!!!!!)



well, it has to be said most scrummaging I see at community age group level up to about U14 is generally pretty pants so its a moot point the fuller shape and size is really missing much by not hinging at every scrum because of their poor technique. If it means coaches will instead concentrate on a proper hooking technique whilst not under pressure then that would be success enough... though undoubtedly as there is guaranteed ball that opportunity will be missed!

The larger lad should have a role to play as a mismatch runner. Watch the blindside stuff being played last w/e - excellent use on the whole. Scotland in particular.

didds

didds

AntonyGoodman
11-11-14, 17:11
& I wasn't being critical, more so 'enquiring' ???

Ah, OK :)

So all I can add to this is that I agree, from what I have read, that it looks a big step from NRoP U12 (as will come in next year) to U13 as it is now. I had always assumed that the progression of regulation changes would have to go higher than U12 up through the age groups to make the steps smaller, but I have seen nothing official to support that view. The NRoP I have seen only go up to U12, I am only assuming that it would make sense to expand this higher up the age groups, I will leave that discussion to you more experienced folks :)

Thanks,

Antony

Browner
11-11-14, 18:11
well, it has to be said most scrummaging I see at community age group level up to about U14 is generally pretty pants so its a moot point the fuller shape and size is really missing much by not hinging at every scrum because of their poor technique. If it means coaches will instead concentrate on a proper hooking technique whilst not under pressure then that would be success enough... though undoubtedly as there is guaranteed ball that opportunity will be missed!

The larger lad should have a role to play as a mismatch runner. Watch the blindside stuff being played last w/e - excellent use on the whole. Scotland in particular.

didds

didds
It will soon become "Larger lads shouldnt turn up until u14" as the NRoP(+1) favour the agile little'un (so will the coaches)

Blackberry
11-11-14, 18:11
Interesting , at the south west festival at frome this year the festival rule was no 8 pick up at u15 level. Maybe that is where th confusion lies x

This was exactly what the Oxfordshirecoach told me as she marched onto the pitch, Somerset had told her..... I replied as politely as I could that there was no way any referee could anticipate her taking on erroneous information, I was being serious that all coaches have a duty to learn the laws...otherwise how can you coach effectively???