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Stormkahn
12-11-14, 07:11
NRoP
7aiii says a high tackle is above the shoulder (which is the neck and up to us).
8a a tackle is arm pits and below.
14b Only contact below the armpit

Now our collective interpretation from U9 has been above the armpit is a high tackle and under the NRoP that means a FP.

However, my reading of the rules above is;
High tackle = neck and up = FP.
Illegal tackle = shoulders (above the armpit and below the neck) = FK.


Do the arms count as below the armpit?

The FP seems to be a lesser penalty vs the high tackle which is the greater of the two offences.

Thoughts?

For bonus points;
Last weekend during a training game I issued a penalty for a poor tackle; the tackler got hold of the ball carriers shirt on his upper arms and swung him around. I'm positive I'd read this in the rules but now I come to look I can't see it? It's possible it was in the draft set they issued late last year that didn't make it in. Is this just plain and simple dangerous play (as well as poor technique)?


cheers,

Dave.

AntonyGoodman
12-11-14, 15:11
NRoP
7aiii says a high tackle is above the shoulder (which is the neck and up to us).
8a a tackle is arm pits and below.
14b Only contact below the armpit

Now our collective interpretation from U9 has been above the armpit is a high tackle and under the NRoP that means a FP.

However, my reading of the rules above is;
High tackle = neck and up = FP.
Illegal tackle = shoulders (above the armpit and below the neck) = FK.


Do the arms count as below the armpit?

The FP seems to be a lesser penalty vs the high tackle which is the greater of the two offences.

Thoughts?

For bonus points;
Last weekend during a training game I issued a penalty for a poor tackle; the tackler got hold of the ball carriers shirt on his upper arms and swung him around. I'm positive I'd read this in the rules but now I come to look I can't see it? It's possible it was in the draft set they issued late last year that didn't make it in. Is this just plain and simple dangerous play (as well as poor technique)?


cheers,

Dave.

Yes, I agree Dave. I think it was in and has been removed.

I too would appreciate some wise minds on this topic.

I think high tackle is clear in our regulations - Free Pass. I think dangerous play, pulling and swinging people round are not mentioned so we should take guidance from the IRB rules and other refs on this forum. How is this reff'ed at higher age groups?

Thanks,

Antony

Steve
12-11-14, 22:11
Interesting topic.

As I have refereed it since our lads started contact last season, anything in line with and below the arm pit area is acceptable but I always follow this with a very loud and clear 'Keep the tackles down lads' and most of the time this has worked. Any high tackle, read - tackle that is dangerous or has the potential to be dangerous, I would blow up straight away as player safety is paramount. Clear explanation is key otherwise the kids will simply get confused and not understand your decisions.

I personally feel that at the age and level these guys play at (U9, U10 etc), high tackles are rarely, if ever, intentional and certainly the intent behind the tackle is not to hurt another player on purpose. Whenever I have blown and stopped the game, I would explain to the player why I did so and restart with a free pass to the non offending (ball carrying) team. Keep safety first but keep the game flowing and moving a close second.

With regard to swinging players round, blow the first time it happens, explain why you stopped the game and it generally puts a lid on it quickly.

Interesting scenario last weekend playing away. One of our biggest players went in for a tackle and tip tackled his opponent (he must have been expecting some weight resistance but he lifted him like a feather). It was a clear upending and it was potentially very dangerous (luckily, the tackled lad was fine although somewhat shocked). Crowd shrieks and tackler crying now as he realises how serious this could have been. I was expecting a call from the referee to remove him from the field immediately but, to the referee's credit he simply stopped play immediately, assessed the tackled player, spoke to the tackler (sternly!) and carried on with a FP restart. It was obvious to me, including the referee given his decision, that there was no intent to tackle dangerously. We did replace him not too long after because he was so upset he couldn't concentrate properly, poor lad.

It's a constant battle trying to get our players to actually get lower and take the legs; so many seem fixated on ripping and tackling standing up that we miss so many opportunities to turn over the ball or at least slow the ball down and reshape the defensive line. Kids eh!

Foggy-Balla
12-11-14, 22:11
I sent off out Head Coach's lad a couple of weeks back after his third consecutive high tackle in a training game. He cried (the boy, not the Head Coach) and I felt slightly guilty, but he hasn't done it as much since...

Stormkahn
13-11-14, 09:11
Thanks Guys, all great food for thought :smile:

Having cogitated and spoken with a few others I think for now I'll go with the general advice and make sure I bring this up with the opposition and explain before hand my position.

Anything above the armpit but generally excluding the arms will be classed as a high tackle which will warrant an FP. I'm like everybody else and generally issue warnings/guidance during play about such things. A tip tackle or swinging the player around is clearly dangerous play so that's an FK.

I've never seen deliberate infringements, it's all accidental. Mostly a little BC ducking into the tackle or tripping and being caught high by a secondary defender. I tend to play advantage rather than blow immediately, especially if the ball moves away fairly quickly, unless there's a clear injury.

Even in last weeks swinging incident I played advantage, whilst the BC was swung around and ended up on the ground he wasn't injured or tackled; he was on his feet immediately and moving forward. As it happened he was bundled into touch 2-3 yards later so I brought the play back to the offence with an explanation. (followed by a rollocking from the coach to the tackler for poor technique...)


laters,

Dave.

crossref
13-11-14, 09:11
Unless he really is about to fall over the try line , you shouldn't play advantage from a dangerous tackle, or other foul play.

Stormkahn
13-11-14, 12:11
Unless he really is about to fall over the try line , you shouldn't play advantage from a dangerous tackle, or other foul play.

ok, Law 8 doesn't list high tackles or other dangerous play as a reason to immediately stop the game.

So at the moment I judge the situation by the result, if the dangerous offence clearly hasn't resulted in an injury then I'll play advantage with the usual stern chat and explanation afterwards. If any situation, regardless of whether there's been an offence, has resulted in a clear injury (or even the suspicion of a head injury/broken limb etc) then I'll blow immediately.

What, in your experience, am I missing?

thanks for your input,

Dave.

crossref
13-11-14, 12:11
I was a bit blunt, sorry, and you're quite right to say that judgement is called for. every situation is different.

But expanding
context
- we're talking u12 and younger, as per the forum section
- and high tackles (and similar - late tackles, shoulder barges, tip tackles, clotheslining, that sort of thing)


OK in this context, as a rule I don't think advantage should very often be played for those as

- it's important to emphasise the seriousness of the offence. Instant loud whistle brings home to everyone this is not just one-of-those things. this is serious, even if the player in your judgement didn't quite mean it. (the words you use, of course will be calm, measured and take account of how malicious it was etc.)

- even at u11, u12 these things can be a flashpoint for the players - you don't want retaliation or players joining in, you don't want players (or coaches/parents) to think someone might have got away with it.

- typically the touchline have erupted with shrieks and cries of concern from mums and dads, for smaller kids these can be very unsettling even upsetting to play through, and some kids will have stopped playing anyway (yes, yes, they should play to the whistle, but they might be eight and this isn't the right moment for a play-to-the-whistle lesson)

If the team are close to the line and you are thinking that if you only give them a moment of advantage they are very likely to score -- well is a loud whistle and PT actually better option?

Of course every situation is different, but that's my rule-of-thumb thinking

Foggy-Balla
13-11-14, 14:11
I'm interested by the question about swinging the player round. Looking at U9 NRoP 7b it says a tackle is:


Any contact below the armpits of the ball carrier which results in the grip by an opponent of the ball carrier.

7.b.c says:


The tack;er must grasp the ball carrier below the armpits, on the shirt, shorts or round the legs.

Unless I have a page missing I can't see anything about the swinging bit! My boy's style is to clamp on with a ferocious ring of steel, then drop to the ground bringing the ball carrier to (a) a rapid halt and (b) the deck. Not classic, not what I repeatedly try and coach him (and what he does when trying to tackle me at home), but jolly effective.

I also note that we've had quite a bit of "you can't wrestle the player into touch". Looking at 7.c.c I read this:


More than one defender is allowed in the tackle, but must allow the ball carrier to pass the ball.

Albeit that 7.l. says:


When the tackle is made other defenders cannot join the tackle (i.e. it is a 1 v 1 tackle).

Bearing in mind 7.b says:


The tackler may not contest the ball (grabbing it, blocking the pass), but must simply work to stop the ball carrier gaining ground.

I think, as long as only one or two players have made the tackle on the oppo player at the same time, and within the bounds of common sense, I can let them pull a ball carrier out.

Honestly, these variations and their implementation are a complete dog's breakfast. Who could imagine the RFU would preside over such a mess...

Stormkahn
13-11-14, 15:11
I was a bit blunt, sorry, and you're quite right to say that judgement is called for. every situation is different.

But expanding
context
- we're talking u12 and younger, as per the forum section
- and high tackles (and similar - late tackles, shoulder barges, tip tackles, clotheslining, that sort of thing)


OK in this context, as a rule I don't think advantage should very often be played for those as

- it's important to emphasise the seriousness of the offence. Instant loud whistle brings home to everyone this is not just one-of-those things. this is serious, even if the player in your judgement didn't quite mean it. (the words you use, of course will be calm, measured and take account of how malicious it was etc.)

- even at u11, u12 these things can be a flashpoint for the players - you don't want retaliation or players joining in, you don't want players (or coaches/parents) to think someone might have got away with it.

- typically the touchline have erupted with shrieks and cries of concern from mums and dads, for smaller kids these can be very unsettling even upsetting to play through, and some kids will have stopped playing anyway (yes, yes, they should play to the whistle, but they might be eight and this isn't the right moment for a play-to-the-whistle lesson)

If the team are close to the line and you are thinking that if you only give them a moment of advantage they are very likely to score -- well is a loud whistle and PT actually better option?

Of course every situation is different, but that's my rule-of-thumb thinking

Brilliant answer sir! Points well made an taken on board :clap:

cheers,

Dave.

Browner
13-11-14, 15:11
A tip tackle or swinging the player around is clearly dangerous play so that's an FK.


Its a YC at least, often RC in u13 upwards ....

Stormkahn
14-11-14, 08:11
I'm interested by the question about swinging the player round. Looking at U9 NRoP 7b it says a tackle is:



7.b.c says:



Unless I have a page missing I can't see anything about the swinging bit! My boy's style is to clamp on with a ferocious ring of steel, then drop to the ground bringing the ball carrier to (a) a rapid halt and (b) the deck. Not classic, not what I repeatedly try and coach him (and what he does when trying to tackle me at home), but jolly effective.

I also note that we've had quite a bit of "you can't wrestle the player into touch". Looking at 7.c.c I read this:



Albeit that 7.l. says:



Bearing in mind 7.b says:



I think, as long as only one or two players have made the tackle on the oppo player at the same time, and within the bounds of common sense, I can let them pull a ball carrier out.

Honestly, these variations and their implementation are a complete dog's breakfast. Who could imagine the RFU would preside over such a mess...

@Foggy I don't think there is anything concerning swinging the BC anymore, at least I've not been able to find it. There was a very draft set of U11 regs floating around late last season that I think mentioned it and it stuck in my brain.

I honestly can't remember back to the U9s, seems like light years away now! From what I recall it's tag but with a proper tackle. So the ref will shout tackle and at that point nobody else can join and the BC has a few seconds to ship the ball. Not a million miles from league really.

cheers,

Dave.

Foggy-Balla
14-11-14, 09:11
Cheers, Stormkahn. I'd stop a player swinging another if I felt it was unsafe, but I was pretty certain there wasn't a law about it.

Phil E
14-11-14, 10:11
Cheers, Stormkahn. I'd stop a player swinging another if I felt it was unsafe, but I was pretty certain there wasn't a law about it.

Scrag tackles (swinging a player around by his shirt) used to be specifically banned in junior rugby, in the same way that squeezball is.

Not sure why they took it out?