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Stormkahn
07-12-14, 14:12
Another Sunday and another question from the noob...

I awarded a penalty to green who elected to kick to gain and then restarted with a FP to green from the point the ball went into touch. Now this was greeted with noises from the reds about "that's not how it works".

Now we've been playing it that way all season and this is the 1st time it's been questioned, in fact, I'm sure this is what we did at the start of season festivals.

So who gets the ball after a penalty kick to gain? FP or scrum?

My reasoning follows;

5b allows a kick to gain which is contrary to the main laws which state that a free kick cannot be used to gain ground (see 9.1j of the main laws). 7ai stipulates that a free pass is used to restart play. There is nothing in the NRoP regulations that covers who gets the FP however the NRoP are a variant set of regulations and therefore the main laws stand except were detailed in the NRoP. Therefore 19.4a (http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=19) of the main laws applies.

cheers,

Dave.

Adam
07-12-14, 14:12
I have no idea. Sounds a bit like rugby league.

Nigib
07-12-14, 14:12
And the Age Group is?

Browner
07-12-14, 15:12
As NRoP don't seem to recognise a PK? all PK offences are downgraded to FK in reg 5.

Can a FK punted straight into touch get the possession rights associated with a PK in normal law?

gain of ground + regain of possession at the free pass ....

or perhaps ............

Is the gain in ground ofset by a possession turnover, which if true seems to align as a disincentive to kicking at this age?

That said, retaining possession after a (normal PK offence ) kick to touch is indeed the standard

Which I think brings me full circle back to your question. And you have much more of a handle on the NRoP ' thinking' than I, so without conclusive reg wording to fall back on the debate will only be settled by RFU clarification.

Good ere innit!

Let us know what happens please.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
07-12-14, 15:12
I have no idea. Sounds a bit like rugby league.

:pepper:

Lee Lifeson-Peart
07-12-14, 15:12
And the Age Group is?

U11 at a guess.

That signature reminds me of an old joke.

Ford have produced a 100% recycled car. It called the Ford Pubyc - it's made from old Corsairs!! (ask your dad) . Badoom tiss!!

Chris_j
07-12-14, 20:12
Dave, The new rules of play for U11 are complete rules for the game. The IRB laws do not apply to U12 and below.

Nrop defines all offences as free kick offences. There is no penalty at this age. So following any offence a kick to gain ground is still a free kick and the restart is given to the opposition.

Chris

Stormkahn
08-12-14, 07:12
Hi Chris, great to hear from somebody else in the NLD area :D


Dave, The new rules of play for U11 are complete rules for the game. The IRB laws do not apply to U12 and below.

"the IRB Laws of the Game,modified by the Rules of Play, are observed when playing rugby at Under 11." The very 1st sentence in the NRoP seems to directly say otherwise. The NRoP structure is also U11 and below, U12 are Continuum. The wiser heads on this board have also persistently pointed back to the main rules to help solve issues.


Nrop defines all offences as free kick offences. There is no penalty at this age. So following any offence a kick to gain ground is still a free kick and the restart is given to the opposition.

Chris

This seems contrary to us, I agree there's no PK just FK, a FK as I understand it cannot normally be used to gain ground but 5b allows for this and that's certainly that's how it was played at Kesteven.

As I read your answer the "kick to gain" bit is irrelevant, it's a FK. So what does the "kick to gain" do in practice? If I take this answer then we will never kick another FK because you're just give the ball straight back to the offending team with no real gain.

Once again thanks for the response, I'm definitely learning lots!

cheers,

Dave.

Stormkahn
08-12-14, 07:12
Dave, The new rules of play for U11 are complete rules for the game. The IRB laws do not apply to U12 and below.

Nrop defines all offences as free kick offences. There is no penalty at this age. So following any offence a kick to gain ground is still a free kick and the restart is given to the opposition.

Chris
PS FP or scrum or something else?

Dave.

AntonyGoodman
08-12-14, 08:12
Hi Dave,

Good question :)

So let me start by saying that we have taken regulation 9 on kicking to apply for any type of kicking, obviously any regulation that specifically mentions "Other than from a restart or free kick..." within regulation 9, we apply that exception. I have assumed that as there are specific sections in section 9 that mention restarts and free kicks, and some that don't, I assumed that the ones that don't mention those things applied to FK's and restarts (this could be utterly wrong and until you posed this question I hadn't even thought about it).

So for us, this means that at a FK kicked into touch means turn over to the other team, and as described in regulation 9, it is a free pass.

Like yourselves, we have not encountered any differing view of this, tournament or otherwise :)

For me "Gain ground" could be a swiftly taken boot down the middle of the pitch to turn the defence, not necessarily a kick to touch, and as Browner said, I think this fits with the idea that kicking at this age group is not given too much weight.

I agree with you that the World Rugby (iRB) laws apply to us if regulations for our age group are not present, I have just assumed that they are present in this case.

Thanks,

Antony

AntonyGoodman
08-12-14, 13:12
Also I should add that Regulation 9 and 10 of the NRoP, as I have interpreted it, exactly mirrors the World Rugby (IRB) laws in 19 (j) and 19 (k) about what happens when you kick a FK into touch. Which I think lends support to my view of things?

FREE KICK

(j) Outside the kicker’s 22, no gain in ground. When a free kick awarded outside the 22 goes directly into touch, the throw-in is in line with where the ball was kicked, or where it went into touch, whichever is nearer the kicker’s goal line.

(k) Inside the kicker’s 22 or in-goal, gain in ground. When a free kick is awarded in the 22 or in-goal and the kick goes directly into touch, the throw-in is where the ball went into touch.

Thanks,

Antony

Stormkahn
08-12-14, 14:12
A big thanks to Anthony and Chris, I can see the error of my ways now.:yellow:

Looks like we and plenty of others have got it wrong, on wards and upwards!

I concur, the "kick to gain" phrase has thrown us a curve ball, ignoring that makes everything much clearer.

cheers,

Dave.

Browner
08-12-14, 16:12
A big thanks to Anthony and Chris, I can see the error of my ways now.:yellow:

Looks like we and plenty of others have got it wrong, on wards and upwards!

I concur, the "kick to gain" phrase has thrown us a curve ball, ignoring that makes everything much clearer.

cheers,

Dave.

As kinda did the reference to " IRB". Although it remains relevant that NRoP refer to ' foul play' but that the definitions of foul play remain in the WR laws, as does accepting the referees decisions & not dissenting, which remain unmodified by any age.

At least you are less likely to see the big kicking 10 yr old firing every FK "into the corners" from every FK anywhere on the pitch as a main gameplay tactic .....phew.

Stormkahn
08-12-14, 16:12
As kinda did the reference to " IRB". Although it remains relevant that NRoP refer to ' foul play' but that the definitions of foul play remain in the WR laws, as does accepting the referees decisions & not dissenting, which remain unmodified by any age.

At least you are less likely to see the big kicking 10 yr old firing every FK "into the corners" from every FK anywhere on the pitch as a main gameplay tactic .....phew.
Don't you believe it! We have guys who certainly have the range, consistent an accurate, maybe....:-D

Browner
08-12-14, 17:12
Don't you believe it! We have guys who certainly have the range, consistent an accurate, maybe....:-D

Stormy, I deliberately said "less likely".

If retaining of possession happened at the subsequent FP, it would ' increase' the likelyhood it could become a teams whole game strategy, contrary surely to the to NRoP running passing evading development aims.