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newref
08-12-14, 12:12
Hi there, just recently began refereeing in my local club. I had, what I thought was a very good understanding of the rules from playing and some coaching, but it appears all those watching the games I have reffed know a lot more about everything than me!!:chin: Anyway I was involved in a youths match over the weekend where I penalised 'team a' for offside at ruck and team b took a quick tap and go,team a had attempted to retreat in good time and team b took ball into contact after approx 6 - 7 meters, does this automatically entitle team b to another penalty 10 m form original mark or as someone had suggested to me afterwards, because team a had attempted to retreat and team b travelled more than 5 m before contact with team a, this was play on? I actually allowed play to continue as team b retained the ball and recycled?? I would appreciate some direction on this, thanks!!

ianh5979
08-12-14, 12:12
Newref there are several possible answers here.
1 If team B player ran into the retreating team A player it is play on as he initiated contact.
2 If the Team A player who tackled the ball carrier came from 10 metres back and ran forward to tackle, again play on.
3 If one of team A players who was not 10 metres moved forward to tackle the ball carrier, then a 10 metre advance is correct

The umpire
08-12-14, 12:12
Firstly welcome to the forum.
2nd. Well, it all depends...Advantage applies, so if they've retained possession and are good progress then why bring them back for a few yards gain and a chance for the defence to reform? But if they were only 10 from the goal line and are denied a scoring chance , then that would be different.
Every one is different but there's no automatic right to lose the10m because they tried to go back. Also you need to watch for the tapper running into retreating player and trying to buy the not 10.

The umpire
08-12-14, 12:12
ianh5979 probably uses more than one finger to type!

Adam
08-12-14, 12:12
Don't forget as well that a player who was 10 metres back from the mark (onside) can run forward and put his team mates in front of him onside.

It took me ages to actually process that and it be in my brain.

Stuartg
08-12-14, 16:12
Don't forget as well that a player who was 10 metres back from the mark (onside) can run forward and put his team mates in front of him onside.

It took me ages to actually process that and it be in my brain.

And I'd wager 99% of players and 100% of coaches don't know this.

Adam
08-12-14, 16:12
And I'd wager 99% of players and 100% of coaches don't know this.

It can be a nice get out of jail clause. Who's to say the onside winger on the far side didn't run up and put them onside?

"Gerrem onsarde ref"

Browner
08-12-14, 17:12
Hi there, just recently began refereeing in my local club. I had, what I thought was a very good understanding of the rules from playing and some coaching, but it appears all those watching the games I have reffed know a lot more about everything than me!!:chin: Anyway I was involved in a youths match over the weekend where I penalised 'team a' for offside at ruck and team b took a quick tap and go,team a had attempted to retreat in good time and team b took ball into contact after approx 6 - 7 meters, does this automatically entitle team b to another penalty 10 m form original mark or as someone had suggested to me afterwards, because team a had attempted to retreat and team b travelled more than 5 m before contact with team a, this was play on? I actually allowed play to continue as team b retained the ball and recycled?? I would appreciate some direction on this, thanks!!

This part, is a befuddleration of another law and the suggestor hasn't helped by his misinformation, not worth confusing your Original Post point by discussing it, but I'd suggest removing 5m from your thinking on QTPs, as its simply a red herring.

See Law 21.7 through to 21.10.

Browner
08-12-14, 17:12
It can be a nice get out of jail clause. Who's to say the onside winger on the far side didn't run up and put them onside?

"Gerrem onsarde ref"

Yep, and by the opposite token if one did, how many would honestly say they'd spot it beyond their narrower 'action' focus

Adam
08-12-14, 18:12
Yep, and by the opposite token if one did, how many would honestly say they'd spot it beyond their narrower 'action' focus

I doubt the match observer would.

(Never actually had this situation before in real life.)

Dixie
08-12-14, 20:12
Hi there, just recently began refereeing in my local club. I had, what I thought was a very good understanding of the rules from playing and some coaching, but it appears all those watching the games I have reffed know a lot more about everything than me!!:chin: Anyway I was involved in a youths match over the weekend where I penalised 'team a' for offside at ruck and team b took a quick tap and go,team a had attempted to retreat in good time and team b took ball into contact after approx 6 - 7 meters, does this automatically entitle team b to another penalty 10 m form original mark or as someone had suggested to me afterwards, because team a had attempted to retreat and team b travelled more than 5 m before contact with team a, this was play on? I actually allowed play to continue as team b retained the ball and recycled?? I would appreciate some direction on this, thanks!! I reiterate the welcome others have held out.

The simple scenario here is when all potential tacklers/interferers are within 10m of the tap penalty. Then one of three things can happen:

a) defence lets tapper run 10m and tackles him - all good
b) defence prevents tapper running 10m - arm out for infringement, new PK 10m forward from first unless advantage accrues.
c) tapper realises he's heading up his own arse and bumps into defender in hope of buying a 10m advance to the PK - play on. The relevant rule is 21.7:

Law 21.721.7 WHAT THE OPPOSING TEAM MUST DO AT A PENALTY KICK
(a) Must run from the mark. The opposing team must immediately run towards their own goal line until they are at least 10 metres away from the mark for the penalty kick, or until they have reached their goal line if that is nearer the mark.
(b) Must keep running. Even if the penalty kick is taken and the kicker’s team is playing the ball, opposing players must keep running until they have retired the necessary distance. They must not take part in the game until they have done so.
(c) Kick taken quickly. If the penalty kick is taken so quickly that opponents have no opportunity to retire, they will not be penalised for this. However, they must continue to retire as described in 21.7(b) above or until a team-mate who was 10 metres from the mark has run in front of them, before they take part in the game.
(d) Interference. The opposing team must not do anything to delay the penalty kick or obstruct the kicker. They must not intentionally take, throw or kick the ball out of reach of the kicker or the kicker’s team mates.
Sanction: Any infringement by the opposing team results in a second penalty kick, 10 metres in front of the mark for the first kick. This mark must not be within 5 metres of the goal line. Any player may take the kick. The kicker may change the type of kick and may choose to kick at goal. If the referee awards a second penalty kick, the second penalty kick is not taken before the referee has made the mark indicating the place of the penalty.

tim White
08-12-14, 20:12
I doubt the match observer would.

(Never actually had this situation before in real life.)

I'll remember that next time you are in the county -could I suggest with my wider field of view I might spot it and you would not?

Dave Sherwin
08-12-14, 21:12
I doubt the match observer would.

(Never actually had this situation before in real life.)

Happens a lot in sevens where the first action on a penalty being conceded will be for the sweeper to sprint up with, commonly the widest player dropping back and across to fill in the sweeper. When reffing sevens, I always ask for the near side AR to work on getting to the 10, whilst the far side AR should immediately be looking for advancing defenders who were clearly and obviously behind the 10. That AR will then radio in '[7] is onside' allowing me judge that anyone behind him is now also onside.

Adam
09-12-14, 00:12
I'll remember that next time you are in the county -could I suggest with my wider field of view I might spot it and you would not?

In all fairness I would probably miss the far side onside winger rushing up.

Make sure you introduce yourself if we are appointed together for a game!