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Stormkahn
15-12-14, 07:12
Welcome back to the next question from the noob :chin:

So this week I blew for an offense that I didn't actually see with my own eyes. The scum half passed from the base of the ruck, 1st receiver was a good 8-10 yards away and a defender tackled him so quickly there was absolutely no way he was on side to start with...unless he can teleport. The problem was I was facing the ruck and didn't actually see him start from an off side position. This wasn't challenged by anybody.

Do I actually have to see the offense in order to blow?

Can you point me in the direction of resources on positioning?

cheers,

Dave.

Daftmedic
15-12-14, 08:12
Ok ok ok. You loose your integrity as a referee if you do that. What I might suggest is positioning at the breakdown. Use a 1,2,3 approach.
1. Get in identify the ball and ensure the buggers arrive on their feet.
2. Get out a little bit to have a good overall veiw of the breakdown area but ensure your chest is pointing towards the defensive post with your inner most leg up the breakdown forward
3. Get out more and flatten yourself to the defensive line so you can control the offside better but still using the above.

Hope this helps with the positioning. Always always a no no Giving decisions you don't see.

crossref
15-12-14, 08:12
Always always a no no Giving decisions you don't see.

always always?

I am not so sure, on saturday scrum half threw a poor, very long, pass that arrived at ankle height. As the 10 bent down to try and gather the pass, just at the critical moment a player got between me and the ball blocking my view, so I couldn't see 10 knock it on, what I could see the ball bounce forwards on to the ground, and all the players (from both teams) stop momentarily , reacting to the knock on.
- Should I call knock on as they were all expecting ?
- Certainly a call of "play on" would have been a surprise to everyone, and what my reason for saying play on ?
- Or ignore it completely and pretend I hadn't seen anything at all?

Browner
15-12-14, 11:12
always always?

I am not so sure, on saturday scrum half threw a poor, very long, pass that arrived at ankle height. As the 10 bent down to try and gather the pass, just at the critical moment a player got between me and the ball blocking my view, so I couldn't see 10 knock it on, what I could see the ball bounce forwards on to the ground, and all the players (from both teams) stop momentarily , reacting to the knock on.
- Should I call knock on as they were all expecting ?
- Certainly a call of "play on" would have been a surprise to everyone, and what my reason for saying play on ?
- Or ignore it completely and pretend I hadn't seen anything at all?

Or

you hear a "thwack" & a "oi you dirty *******" ..... You immediatedly spin round and see a player fall to the floor with his nose spewing blood while his opponent is over the top of him with fist still cocked ...... I didn't see what started it, or the thwack being delivered...... But Mr Fist Cocked is gonna walk ...surely?

OB..
15-12-14, 11:12
Always always a no no Giving decisions you don't see.Never say never.

Daftmedic
15-12-14, 14:12
I think the TMO descision not to award the penalty in the Leinster match proves not everything is how you didn't see it. Again integrity is key.

crossref
15-12-14, 14:12
I think the TMO descision not to award the penalty in the Leinster match proves not everything is how you didn't see it. Again integrity is key.

so how would you handle my example in #3 - loud shout of "play on, couldn't see it!" ?

Daftmedic
15-12-14, 15:12
Did you see it?

Pegleg
15-12-14, 16:12
With the proviso that you never ever say never. Never give what you do not see (without AR / TMO).

crossref
15-12-14, 17:12
With the proviso that you never ever say never. Never give what you do not see (without AR / TMO).

I get you both.
So ... in scenario in post #3, what the ref should do is ...... ?

tim White
15-12-14, 18:12
"with your inner most leg up the breakdown forward " ????????????

Daftmedic
15-12-14, 18:12
Supposed to of said. Your inner most leg to the breakdown. Naturally opens your body up to the defensive line

Dickie E
15-12-14, 18:12
'clear and obvious' trumps 'didn't see'

Daftmedic
15-12-14, 18:12
If you didn't see it isn't clear.

Daftmedic
15-12-14, 18:12
Leinster v Quinn's. Red thought he saw a hand in. TMO And ref agreed it was a knock on. What he thought he saw was completely different to what actually happened. If you start making calls you don't properly see you leave yourself open to question. Am I the only one here that thinks integrity is paramount.

Dixie
15-12-14, 19:12
2. Get out a little bit to have a good overall veiw of the breakdown area but ensure your chest is pointing towards the defensive post with your inner most leg up the breakdown forward

DaftMedic, I think you have mistaken this for one of your hospital's Strip Twister forums!

For the OP, there will be times when you guess - and in perhaps 50% of those occasions you will be wrong. That doesn't mean that you were wrong to go with your gut, but it does mean that your gut will lead you astray quite often - and when it does, you risk losing the respect of the players. In my experience, they will accept more readily an honest call of "unsighted! Play On!".

As you identify, the key here is positioning so you will have to rely on your gut less often. What DaftMedic was trying to say was this, I suspect:

a) you need to get fit enough to start on the blind side of any breakdown, yet still arrive with the Jacklers to the next one.
b) if you are that fit, then arrive, locate the ball, then step back on an angle of 45 degrees towards the short side. So equal distance back, and towards the touchline.
c) this opens up your field of view so you see arriving players (check for angle of entry, staying on feet, shoulder charge claiming "clearout Sir!)
d) it also means you can see the defensive backs and their offside line; but:
e) you have to be quick to get to the next breakdown.

Depending on whether you had a break from the game between playing and reffing, this positioning may be a big ask until you develop better fitness. Rule 1 - get fit to ref, don't ref to get fit. But until you achieve better fitness and speed, you may need to cheat a bit by positioning yourself infield of the ruck. If so: Rule 2 - Stay out of the #9/#10 channel! You need to know whether the 10 is flat (stay deep) or deep (stay flat). Either way, you still get in close to locate the ball, then step back into the infield. Face the posts not the ruck, and turn your head to see what you need rather than your body. Make a show of pointing to the offside line even if monitoring something else - keep them guessing. And when the ball is at the base - then you quickly check the offside line.

It's good that you have self-identified the solution (positioning). There's no one answer, but many assessors have a clear view of optimum that won't differ too much from mine. But you know yourself whether "optimum" will leave you exposed - and you will develop strategies to adjust. Don't let those adjustments become your default norm, however. Always view them as temporary solutions until you fix the fitness/speed problem.

Good luck - keep 'em coming.

Pegleg
15-12-14, 19:12
I get you both.
So ... in scenario in post #3, what the ref should do is ...... ?

Play on. Clarify, at the next stoppage, that you did not see it. Apologise for being "unsighted" if you want.

On the other hand:

Player on floor with blood coming from a bloodied mouth. Oppo player stood next to him with fist covered in blood. Ping him. That is clear and obvious for me.

You should have been in position to see the KO and the punch. You should not have got your positioning wrong ( but it happens). The first may or may not have happened. The second clearly did.

OB..
15-12-14, 20:12
I don't see either extreme as being a good rule of thumb. I expect a referee to use sensible judgement when assessing a tricky situation.

When a pile of bodies in a maul crashes over the try line, you probably cannot actually see the ball being grounded, and it is indeed possible the ball carrier lost it forward before triumphantly landing on it again. Do you give the try?

Shelflife
15-12-14, 20:12
Or

you hear a "thwack" & a "oi you dirty *******" ..... You immediatedly spin round and see a player fall to the floor with his nose spewing blood while his opponent is over the top of him with fist still cocked ...... I didn't see what started it, or the thwack being delivered...... But Mr Fist Cocked is gonna walk ...surely?

You should have fun in a disciplinary meeting ! it would be thrown out straight away, could you describe what you saw please? aaahhh I didnt see anything but I decided to send him off anyway. shortest hearing ever !

- - - Updated - - -

Dickie E
15-12-14, 21:12
I don't see either extreme as being a good rule of thumb.

What are the 2 extremes to which you refer?

OB..
15-12-14, 21:12
North Pole: if you didn't see what happened, make your best guess
South Pole: only make a decision when you have clearly seen exactly what happened. Never draw any inferences.

Equator: cautiously use your best judgement before blowing

crossref
15-12-14, 22:12
Play on. Clarify, at the next stoppage, that you did not see it. Apologise for being "unsighted" if you want.

On the other hand:

Player on floor with blood coming from a bloodied mouth. Oppo player stood next to him with fist covered in blood. Ping him. That is clear and obvious for me.

You should have been in position to see the KO and the punch. You should not have got your positioning wrong ( but it happens). The first may or may not have happened. The second clearly did.

so sometimes it is appropriate to blow for something you didn't quite see, and sometimes it isn't.

I agree with that pragmatic approach, even if not with your action on the particular scenarios.

Pegleg
15-12-14, 23:12
If the evidence is there yes it is ok to act on it. If the evidence in not then obviously no. Thats why you never say never.

To claim a player that makes a tackle could not have run "that" quickly so must have been offside opens you up to be proved a fool.

A player who receives an ankle height pass may well try to trap the ball football stye. You seeing the ball roll in front of him and pinging him would lead you to look a complete prat.

However,

If a player is injured and another player is implicated, by clear visable evidence (blood on his hands, knuckles may be tooth implanted in his fist etc), as the offender then I'd take my chance on the balance of probabilities.

Stormkahn
16-12-14, 07:12
Blimey, leave you guys unsupervised for a while and it's a 3 page thread....

Thanks for the good advice Dixie, much appreciated. Point well taken about fitness but being 6'5" on < 1/2 a pitch with U11s it's not been a factor getting somewhere it's just knowing where that somewhere should be!

Thus far I call what I see, if I'm unsighted I say so and give benefit of the doubt, play on, for the U11s this has been fine. I'm more than happy with my call which prompted the question, whilst unseen it was an open and shut case.

Now at my age group we don't tend to have an AR, in all of your example scenarios would you not have called on the AR to consult before ruling, after all you have 2 more pairs of eyes?

If there had been fisty cuffs in a U11 match (fat chance) I'd be calling on the coaches for a chat...

Pegleg
16-12-14, 07:12
If there had been fisty cuffs in a U11 match (fat chance) I'd be calling on the coaches for a chat...

Don't believe it. They can happen at any age. Usually handbags (serious at that age!).

With age group stuff and Knock ons it may be worth looking at the coaches. If Jonny has knocked on the look on his coaches face my tell the tale. Use the coaches as a sort of "AR" Again do so with great care. Take into account the game tone etc.

Remember that whatever you call is done to you. You justify your action. You can't blame the coach. I remember seeing video clip of a senior ref (I'll not mention his name) who after giving a PK reacted to the players "dissention " with the comment (whilst looking like he was about to cry) "He (the AR) said it!" It would have been sad had it not been so funny. It was briceless.

In the puch scenario I describe above. If I sent off a player in that situation. I would have to be able to say honestly why I arrived at my call. No claiming to have seen that which I did not.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
16-12-14, 08:12
"with your inner most leg up the breakdown forward " ????????????

Not just me then?

crossref
16-12-14, 08:12
Now at my age group we don't tend to have an AR, in all of your example scenarios would you not have called on the AR to consult before ruling, after all you have 2 more pairs of eyes

technically I suspect you never have ARs -- as the two dads who act as TJs for you aren't ARs.

we have had some discussion before on this page as to how a person gets the special powers that come with being an official AR , rather than merely a TJ.

It's a bit blurry.
- it would be possible for a club as match organiser to appoint a team of team of three to a youth game, composed of three people determined to be suitable for the task (ie likely three people who are normally club-refs).

- but as a U11 club ref on a Sunday morning you can't simply decide, on the fly, to turn your two volunteer TJs into official ARs, with AR powers.

- BUT on the other hand if you personally, Dave, are a club official, perhaps even the Ref Co, and U11 team manager who organised the match, and you have on the sideline two people you know are sutiable then you probably CAN appoint them then and there as ARs (I would say)

Definitions
Every match is under the control of Match Officials who consist of the referee and two touch judges or assistant referees. Additional persons, as authorised by the match organisers may include the reserve referee and/or reserve assistant referee, an official to assist the referee in making decisions by using technological devices, the time keeper, the match doctor, the team doctors, the non-playing members of the teams and the ball persons.

A touch judge may be appointed by a match organiser or a team involved in a match and is responsible for signalling, touch, touch in-goal and the success or otherwise of kicks at goal.

An assistant referee may be appointed by a match organiser and is responsible for signalling, touch, touch in-goal, the success or otherwise of kicks at goal and indicating foul play. An assistant referee will also provide assistance to the referee in the performance of any of the referee’s duties as directed by the referee.

menace
16-12-14, 10:12
Can you point me in the direction of resources on positioning?


Storky....you may find this helpful. http://www.actrra.org.au/uploads/1/0/4/1/10411123/rugbyrefinpractice_426.pdf

Stormkahn
16-12-14, 12:12
Storky....you may find this helpful. http://www.actrra.org.au/uploads/1/0/4/1/10411123/rugbyrefinpractice_426.pdf

spot on, exactly the sort of thing I was looking for! cheers.

Browner
16-12-14, 14:12
[QUOTE=Shelflife;289371]. it would be thrown out straight away, could you describe what you saw please?

aaahhh I didnt see anything but I decided to send him off anyway.

shortest hearing ever !

No, shelfy,

Cos after the incident I ask " ok player, what he do to deserve that response?, and tell me why that shouldnt be a red card?"

" he was effin doing this to me ......." .....ker-ching!!

My detailed report then states what I saw, and also states the players inadvertant confession :clap:. Anyway he attends, I don't, his time wasted and his costs not mine!

SimonSmith
16-12-14, 16:12
RFU Regulation 19: "The standard of proof in all disciplinary cases (including before Appeal Panels) is the balance of probabilities."